[eesmith]

Please define "urban".

Cul-de-sac layouts are usually in suburban regions. Is that included in 'urban'? Or are you comparing urban cores to exurbs or rural regions?

I've walked outside at 1am in a city with no one else on the streets. I've walked at 1am in another city with a lot of people on the streets. I can tell you that I felt safer when there were more people on the street than just me. Which would make you feel safer?

FWIW, "high foot traffic" does not only mean "crowds". Neighbors walking by every few minutes would count as high traffic.

To give more concrete numbers, https://spacesyntax.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Hillier-S... concerns this exact topic. The author writes "Mean pedestrian movement [for road] segments without retail the rate is 158.476 [per hour] for 317 segments", where a 'segment' is the section of street between intersections, in this case, in London.

That's roughly 2-4 people on the street at any one time - hardly a crowd that would lead to a riot!

On streets with retail, it's 640, or about 10-20 people at any one time.

[burfog]

I think all of us (you, me, cimmanom) are assuming that cul-de-sac layouts are not urban.

Due to bad navigation, I walked through a bad area of western San Francisco on July 4 during mid day and then again on July 5 at around 2 AM. As a non-urban person I might be clueless, but I felt a lot less terrified with the deserted streets at 2 AM. Fewer people means fewer threats. I don't assume bystanders will somehow help me.

The idea that "criminals aren't going to try to break into a building if there's an audience" was proven wrong right after I left, with the Wells Fargo museum robbery happening in broad daylight with a crowd and a traffic jam.

[eesmith]

I still don't know what you mean by "urban".

I linked to a report concerning cul-de-sac streets in London. Do you think that I think London is not urban?

I also linked to a Wikipedia page which makes an explicit connection between "suburbs", "urban planning" and culs-de-sac, at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_end_(street)#Suburban_use... .

No one is seriously making the absolutist argument that "criminals aren't going to try ... if there's an audience".

There was a Jan. 27, 2015 Wells Fargo museum robbery in San Francisco at 2:26 a.m - https://abcnews.go.com/US/wells-fargo-museum-gold-robbers-pl... . If that's the one you mean, and you believe it is a valid data point, doesn't it cast doubt on your views?

For me it makes little difference, as the actual argument is one of statistics. Any one data point has little weight. The report I linked to gives those statistics, and references to similar reports.

[burfog]

I doubt all of London is urban. There might be an absurdly expensive neighborhood that isn't.

The line is blurry. Factors include a high portion of people who are dependent on landlords and public transportation, the mixing of residential with non-residential, and of course density.

It certainly is possible to have a cul-de-sac that is urban.

[eesmith]

Let me get this straight. I linked to a report which included culs-de-sac in London, and with a map of the streets.

You responded "I think all of us (you, me, cimmanom) are assuming that cul-de-sac layouts are not urban."

So your belief is that I looked at a map of a part of London, assumed it was not urban, but was instead some 'absurdly expensive neighborhood that isn't urban'?

I am growing more convinced that I cannot place weight on your assumptions.

Which Wells Fargo museum robbery you are thinking of which took place during the day. Can you at least tell me what year it was?