[simonh]

I think randomness really is a red herring. To the extent that a decision of ours is random, it is not ours. That doesn't necessarily absolve us of responsibility.

In No Country for Old Men a guy flips a coin to decide if he will kill someone. He chose to flip the coin though - delegating a choice to randomness does not abrogate us of responsibility. By doing so he created the framework in which the outcome arrises, whatever that outcome is. He made it possible, even likely and bears responsibility for that by selecting the set of possible outcomes and the degree of randomness. Also he does this many times, so it wasn't a "random choice to randomly choose", it's a consistent repeated pattern of behaviour that directly emerges from his personal ongoing mental state.

I don't go around randomly killing people and that's a consistent pattern that emerges from my persistent ongoing (if evolving) mental state and it _is_ a free choice. The fact that it's pre-determined is fine, because it means it comes from me.

[intralizee]

He did not make the choice to murder if all the previous states, linked together to the outcome and thus it couldn’t have been different. If I’m a product of every moment, where the previous moments factor into my current moment.. I would only consider myself free if I had full control before birth into how my life plays out. Nobody is making choices is what I observe everyday, only forces are occurring and under the illusion or simply a disguise of choice.

[simonh]

>He did not make the choice to murder if all the previous states, linked together to the outcome and thus it couldn’t have been different.

To some extent yes, our choices and scope of action is constrained by our essential nature, some of which is determined before we are even born. However this doesn't absolve us of all accountability. It simply sets up a framework within which we can discuss what accountability is and how we want to manage it.

This is a difficult issue and I don't have all the answers about accountability, I see my take on it as my starting point for the discussion about it not the end. I believe in rehabilitative rather than retributive justice because of this. Also see my reply to fjuerfilis.

[intralizee]

To all extent there is no choice. Randomness is a fallacy in this world, it doesn’t exist and or should be interpreted as what occurs associated as deterministic. People associate the word “random” to events they cannot process but still they’re set variables that factored into the final outcome with no other possible result when the exact variables are simulated again if possible. I think accountability isn’t a real thing in the sense of morally right and it’s just human conditioning to blame for us thinking it should ever exist when it’s morally not correct. Rehabilitation should always be the action humans take if we love ourselves and others. Else we’re playing with fire because the only thing separating us from a person who becomes a murder is our birth into this world and when society is imperfect to prevent inequality, genetics, environment, and travesty altering a state to poor health where one will commit murder or even suicide occurs. Similar to a chemical equation but longer to write out the formula and process to demonstrate again and again.

[simonh]

I take it you're not a fan of Quantum Mechanics?

I think that morality, love and justice emerge from human nature. I think that I, my self and my consciousness are emergent properties and I'm fine with that. I think that the purpose of human life is chosen for us by the rules of biology, natural selection, game theory and a host of other factors that, seemingly miraculously, lead me to the conclusion that the philosophical Good Life is desirable and largely attainable.

[intralizee]

I don’t think it’s attainable but only what is destined happens. Quantum mechanics to me is something us humans do not have the ability to analyze to the depth of other things today. I assume it’s determinism as well. It’s possible to have local hidden variables that play into the determined outcome and which are not measurable in our universe or with our capabilities but still would be determinism at the heart. I think free will only exists if you have the perfect life, where one always enjoyed it and that to me is ignoring what I would associate “free” as in the definition. It’s more of like thinking well you can’t necessarily say the person didn’t want the existence.

[wonthegame]

A bit of a tangent but, you’ll notice he also becomes agitated when the coin doesn’t “allow” him to kill (I think, it’s been awhile) the shopkeeper. This implies he was looking for reasons to kill people. The coin flipping was his way of shifting the blame of his true desires - to kill people.