[nthompson]

The question about Gracie jiu-jitsu is not so interesting anymore: In the early 90’s, there were simply very talented jiu jitsu practitioners who were close to the UFC. Now we’ve witnessed many strategies used successfully in MMA, like American college wrestling (Ben Askren, Matt Hughes), Thai clinches (TJ Dillashaw), kickboxing (Holly Holmes), and Judo (Ronda Rousey). In fact very few fights end with an interesting jiu jitsu submission anymore, the armbar and the tear naked choke are the most common. These techniques were never unique to jiu jitsu.

[aidenn0]

Don't forget also that the Gracie family had significant Vale Tudo experience, and those rules were very similar to UFC.

Also, BJJ grew out of early Judo, which was less calcified when it was brought to Brazil. Helio Gracie was manhandled by the Judoka Masahiko Kimura, despite home-field advantage[1].

Catch wrestling also had similar rules, but had a culture of secrecy, so was not going to spread in a similar way to Judo.

Yet another reason is simply the fact that weapons were invented many thousands of years ago, so unarmed combat has been unimportant since at least the bronze age.

1: Of note, the Gracies thickened the padding of the mat used because Kimura's throws were known to be capable of concussing people; after throwing Gracie around like a ragdoll for the entire first round, he switched to trying for lock submissions, which he eventually did get (and BJJ names the shoulder lock used the "Kimura" even today).

[andrewstuart]

I feel that jiu jitsu makes UFC / MMA less interesting.

I'm more interested in of the stand up combat sports like kickboxing.

I reckon UFC is missing out by not having a pure standup division, without the wrestling/bjj.

I know a former world champion kickboxer who says "Ground and pound? Where's the honor in that?". I thought about it a bit and realised he is right - where is the honor, sportsmanship in beating the heck out of someone on the ground.

[ALittleLight]

Why is there more honor in beating someone while standing?

The reason to include wrestling is that it makes the contest more closely approximate a real fight. In a real fight your opponent does have the option to go to the ground.

[lmm]

Depends what you consider a "real fight". E.g. I remember a Taekwando instructor saying that BJJ would always beat Taekwando in a UFC match, but he'd never want to rely on their techniques in a bar fight where there might be broken glass on the floor.

[tomhoward]

I think they mean a more traditional "real fight" - in ancient/prehistoric times, on soil or sand rather than concrete with broken glass.

[garmaine]

> The reason to include wrestling is that it makes the contest more closely approximate a real fight. In a real fight your opponent does have the option to go to the ground.

And be immediately killed by anyone nearby, who need merely step on their windpipe or something. Going to the ground gets you killed in a “real fight.”

[thaumasiotes]

How likely is a real fight to be one-on-one, just you and the guy you're trying to kill?

[ALittleLight]

Probably more likely than that it's a one on one fight where you both agree not to wrestle.

[thaumasiotes]

By definition, an unrestricted one-on-one fight is more likely than a specific subset of one-on-one fights, since the first possibility includes the second.

But neither is likely at all.

Also unlikely: picking a fight with someone who weighs about the same amount you do.

[ALittleLight]

I don't think your logic follows. Unrestricted fights and restricted fights are both subsets of the set of fights, but restricted fights aren't a subset of unrestricted fights. By definition, unrestricted fights are distinct from restricted fights.

Either way, I regret pursuing this topic and won't comment on it further since I feel this is a discussion not worth having, reading, or writing. I don't write that to be rude, just as an attempt to hold myself to some standard for discourse.

[mmirate]

For some martial-arts, it may be necessary to account for the likelihood that bystanders will actually be close enough to be able to intervene before the fight has concluded.

[nthompson]

Awesome list of questions, btw.