[akmiller]

I'd disagree with this.

Primarily been developing with Clojure for 5 years now with some pretty large codebases. It does depend on how you write your code but favoring pure functions, pushing immutability to the edges of your programs allows you to refactor without fear.

Clojure also has many things to aid in this such as pre/post conditions, clojure.spec (which allows you to build complex type definitions), and of course test.check (property based testing).

[lgas]

Having spent the last two years working professionally in Haskell after having spent the previous two years working professionally in Clojure, I'd disagree with this. Haskell is roughly infinitely better than Clojure for meaningful refactoring. Clojure gives you (great) tools for using your own brain to make sure the refactor goes well. Haskell replaces your brain almost entirely in the process and just gives you a precise list of the things have to fix. The difference in experience is night and day. When you're done with a Haskell refactoring (even a major one) and it compiles again you will be completely done 99% of the time. With Clojure there's not even a "compiles again" moment to look for, and even when you think you're done you're refactoring there's a good chance that there's something that will pop up at runtime (and some point arbitrarily far in the future) and tell you otherwise.

[ken]

Just as with the word "developer" [1], I'm beginning to think that the word "refactor" is a dirty word. Are we even talking about the same activity? How is it people are alternately claiming that Haskell and Clojure (virtual opposites on the language spectrum) are infinitely superior to each other at the same thing?

Wikipedia defines it as "the process of restructuring existing computer code without changing its external behavior", which sounds about right, but it's also so completely generic that it could mean almost anything.

Claiming that Clojure can't do 'meaningful refactoring' sounds to me about like claiming that Kanji is bad for transcribing Welsh, or that sign language doesn't work well for audiobooks. They're technically languages but the fundamentals are so different that all the comparisons are talking right past each other.

The style of refactoring that one does in Haskell (disclaimer: it's been many years since I've written any) is not really possible in Clojure, but it's not really necessary, either.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18310958

[Jach]

"Refactoring" has a definitive origin, which is Martin Fowler's Refactoring book from 1999.

Fowler wanted to write the book using Smalltalk, but because the techniques he wanted to write about were fairly language agnostic, he did it in Java, as that was more popular. Unfortunately I think a lot of programmers missed the point, and now think refactoring is only something that can be done well in languages like Java (static typing) and with IDE support.

He's announced a second edition[0] in which he'll use JavaScript, to again prove the point that the techniques matter less than the language (other than sometimes techniques that work for class-based designs aren't as relevant as for function-based designs) and because JS is so popular. I'm not optimistic it will help anyone see the underlying point, but at the very least it might kill the idea that refactoring has to be hard in non-static-typed languages.

[0] https://martinfowler.com/articles/201803-refactoring-2nd-ed....

[wild_preference]

I'd say it comes down to the more standard fare of dynamic vs static typing where the latter has a general advantage in refactoring.

It's true that Clojure has its own perks that aid in refactoring, like how you may have less code altogether. But in my experience it's still a drop in the bucket compared to the zoomed out view of dynamic vs static typing.

For example, could you give some examples that make Clojure particularly good in this regard? I'd have trouble coming up with many that quantify favorably against compile-time analysis. And it would be unfair to take this reality and say "Clojure sucks at refactoring." I think that people do say that is what clouds these discussions where one then needs to point out that Clojure has advantages over other dynamically typed languages which is definitely true.

[lgas]

I never claimed that Clojure can't do meaningful refactoring, and in fact I acknowledged that Clojure gives you great tools for using your own brain to do refactoring. Clojure is my favorite dynamic language and I heartily recommend it to anyone looking for something in that space. It's just that the experience of refactoring (or anything like it -- even just making large changes) in Haskell is massively better than the experience of doing it in Clojure.

[didibus]

> The style of refactoring that one does in Haskell (disclaimer: it's been many years since I've written any) is not really possible in Clojure, but it's not really necessary, either.

You're spot on. It just isn't really necessary to refactor Clojure code. In my many years using it professionally, I didn't have to refactor it once. The code just stays clean, it doesn't need cleaning up. So I find the whole refactoring argument moot. Why does your language lend itself to code that needs to be refactored? Sounds like a disadvantage to me.

[akmiller]

To be fair, I wasn't comparing the two. I've never used Haskell (for more than just learning/tutorials).

I would suggest that if you have runtime bugs popping up in Clojure programs then that would suggest the inputs to functions (since they should be primarily pure) are not being validated which can easily be accomplished. I would imagine this needs to be done in Haskell as well since just verifying types does not indicate valid data.

[matt-noonan]

In Haskell designs, developers tend to be quite careful about setting things up so that verifying types does indicate valid data. Coming from other languages (C++, Common Lisp, and Python in my case), it can be a little surprising just how often and how easily you can make this happen.

[akmiller]

You can do similar things with spec for Clojure. As I stated in another response that is opt-in obviously so it requires more discipline perhaps but it is definitely available.

[willtim]

Null checks are also opt-in, that's why Tony Hoare calls null his "Billion Dollar Mistake". Explicit runtime checks are in no way "similar" to static typing! Static typing is a machine-checked proof of correctness for a certain class of properties.

[matt-noonan]

I'd rather have the compiler ensure that my discipline (and my team's) never slips, and to get guarantees about all possible executions instead of just those executions that have been tested.

For these reasons and others, I don't personally find run-time checks to be an adequate replacement for compile-time checks. But there is no really convincing research on the subject, and I certainly don't begrudge your preference here.

[lgas]

> To be fair, I wasn't comparing the two.

Well, the statement you were disagreeing with from the post you responded to was:

> You can't refactor Clojure without fear like in Haskell.

You go on to suggest you can achieve a similar experience in Clojure by "depending on how you write your code". This simply hasn't been my experience. Just "writing your code the right way" solves almost every problem that arises in programming, but just isn't always feasible in practice (on a team of developers with mixed skill levels, operating under deadlines, etc).

Re. validation, as Matt Noonan mentioned, in Haskell the goal is often to build/leverage correct-by-construction data types which obviate the need for any validation.

A simple example of this would be the `NonEmpty` (list) type.

If you have a function that pulls a list out of some key in a clojure map and it's intended that it always be a non-empty list you still need to check if actually is or not before using it because you have no control over what the caller passes to you. If the caller never sends an empty list you're fine, but if they do and you don't check for it, you've got a bug. Even if you do check for it, there's often nothing sensible you can do at that point since the local function shouldn't know anything about it's calling context, so you have to raise an error or return a nil or something.

On the flip side, in Haskell instead of using a map you would be likely to create a specific data type, and in that data type you would declare the non-empty field to be of the `NonEmpty` type. The first immediate benefit you get is that you no longer have to do any of these checks for the list being empty (or nil, or something else instead of a list) and instead just write your algorithm over the list. Among other things this results in cleaner, simpler, and less code in your immediate function.

But there's another benefit which is now anyone that calls your function has to have constructed a `NonEmpty` list before they call your function. The impact of this essentially naturally propagates the need to construct that `NonEmpty` list to the right place in the code. Maybe it really is just the caller to your your function that needs to take a regular (possibly empty) list that it has and package it up into a `NonEmpty` to call your function... and in that case you still get the benefits of code that shorter, simpler and more clearly communicates it's intention, but where this really shines is when that requirement to pass a non-empty list makes you realize something about the nature of your problem, and you let that `NonEmpty` propagate all the way out towards the boundaries of your application.

Then you end up in a situation where a) all of the code that touches that field anywhere is simpler, clearer, etc. but more importantly b) if someone does send you malformed data with an empty list (say via JSON over a web API or similar) then the code that deserializes the JSON into the `NonEmpty` will fail and you will get an error that says something like "Couldn't decode a YourCustomType from {whatever it was trying to decode}" at the very moment that the bad data tried to enter your system -- instead of just reading the JSON into a map because it was well formed and then letting the record with the empty list in it bounce around until it hits a function that assumes it's non empty at which point you may have little to no information about the provenance of the data or other details that would make easier to solve the problem.

[akmiller]

Exactly, and I was responding to the fact that I never fear refactoring my Clojure code.

Your examples of the type safety can all be mimicked with spec in Clojure. Granted spec is opt-in (but I'm guessing so is some of the more detailed type safety attributes you are talking about like NonEmpty).

Anyhow, to each their own and one persons experience isn't likely to be the same as the others so I'd encourage everyone to try out many languages. Some languages click with people more than others do so it's always worthwhile to experiment.

[lgas]

The opt-in vs opt-out nature is definitely key. As an example, if you write a small function to operate on a non-empty list and use it on a non-empty list in exactly one place, everything is fine in either language. But in Haskell if someone else tries to use the function passing in an empty list, it won't compile, they will encounter the problem right away. In Clojure if someone sees the function and says "oh good, someone's already written this function, I'll just use it" and doesn't realize that it expects a non-empty list, then you now have another situation where something is going to explode when data that contains an empty list arrives. And the error is again going to be far (in the code and in time) from the source of the problem. The difference between the experience of "I have good tools that I can use effectively to arrange to avoid bugs" and "I have tools that simply will not allow entire (large) classes of bugs at all" is what I'm really trying to get at. This is just an area where Clojure shines compared to most dynamic languages but Haskell shines compared to nearly all languages.

[willtim]

Explicit runtime checks that must be manually added are not a substitute for static typing! You should follow your own advice and try out a statically typed language with good inference!

Every tool has a sweet spot and large code bases and maintenance is well outside the sweet spot of any dynamic language.

[jwhitlark]

Well, there are certainly classes of problems that I'd use static typing for, but in my experience, static typing != software that gets the job done. That doesn't mean that it holds things back, though.

Many static typing arguments remind me of the Air Force's old "We'll bomb them so hard we won't have to send in ground troops." I just haven't seen it in practice, and the few studies that have looked at it empirically haven't seen a clear advantage either. If you know of such a study, please point it out!

In the end, all sorts of combinations have succeeded or failed, to the point where now when people start talking about "the right tool for the job", I add in "the right tool for the right people in the right environment for the right job..."

[tanin]

> It does depend on how you write your code but favoring pure functions, pushing immutability to the edges of your programs allows you to refactor without fear.

Dynamic typing is punitive if we make mistake (e.g. using the wrong architecture, now we have to refactor), and we'll make mistakes.

Writing perfect code with perfect architecture and perfect test has been the argument "for" dynamic typing, but I don't think that's a realistic assumption.

[yogthos]

My experience is that static typing tends to lead to higher coupling and monolithic design, while you tend to break things up more aggressively in a dynamic language like Clojure.

[tanin]

I understand what you mean, and it's definitely a trade off.

Static typing requires all types to make sense together no matter how small the addition is.

In dynamic typing, we can just add a class/object/field here and there because it'll only be used narrowly anyway. So, it's often fine.

This would be great if we can think of a small example to illustrate this trade off.

[yogthos]

One example I can think of is how Ring middleware works. The request map is passed through a series of functions, and each one can modify it in its own way. For example, you could have an authentication library that adds an :identity key, and another that adds a :session key. These libraries can work together without having to know anything about each other.