[_wmd]

If you don't like software with these new style licenses, then don't use software with these new style licenses. Explain what it is that apparently so deeply violates your right to exist, but puritanical screaming and finger-pointing black & white contrasts never really convinces people of anything. All these rants are lame.

The best comment I've heard so far w.r.t. CC is how it complicates acquisition of software by businesses. That's a hugely legit complaint -- but the same complaint applied to the GPL not more than 2 decades ago. Companies adjusted before, assuming value exists in this new breed of license, they'll adjust again.

Meanwhile as a free software author, I'm very happy to see smaller companies experimenting with methods to protect their work in whatever way they see fit. Hopefully something "socially acceptable" comes from all this that might be useful to me at some stage in future.

Finally it's worth remembering that there is a HUGE degree of freedom to explore between closed source, pay-only software and free software as we have it today. I have yet to see a recent example of a license that removes what for me is the greatest benefit of all: the ability to fix and debug things without opening a ticket. Fundamentalist shouting matches erupting every time someone tries something new reminds me of another modern debate - religion, and like there, the loudest and most annoying rarely have meaningful new information to share

----

There is another angle that seems very interesting. Industry consolidation and typical policy within large companies towards employees working on free software ("you can't unless it's approved & we own copyright") means 'the movement' that existed in the 90s is all but dead and gone. Any big real development that happens in the open typically happens because some employer is explicitly paying an employee to advance their agenda through technical means (see e.g. Kubernetes).

To me, a new license that not only incentivized but made practical and sustainable large software projects independent of those large consolidated employers is far more valuable than not having to toss a few dimes in the pot if that software is used in some circumstances where profit is made.

[cameronhowe]

His problem with them is in the title of the post. If you want to do something that is non-free, don't call it open source or free software, both words have accepted definitions, by osi and fsf/gnu respectively. Your reply is entirely off-topic.

[johnsea]

“Apache+Commons Clause” does imo not pretend that it is free/open-source. It's a free/open-source license combined with a restriction. I think this is or should be plain for everybody who reads the license.

In a way I can accept that 'Commons' is being used as a restriction in order to restrict monetary profit. With land, air and especially water there are also restriction in place. E.g. there is much critic if a multinational comes and bottles the water and (in some places) impairs local usage. Rules are then necessary.

[detaro]

The Apache Foundation says it has gotten confused questions about this almost immediately and has asked that this combination not be used (it's own "brand guidelines" say to only use combinations like this if users are granted additional rights, not if the user is restricted further)

[SmellyGeekBoy]

> If you want to do something that is non-free, don't call it open source or free software, both words have accepted definitions

If you want to do something that is non-free, don't call it Free Software. As free software advocates keep telling us, Open Source is not the same thing despite the two being historically linked.

[Klathmon]

I'm playing devil's advocate here, but why does "free software" only apply to some licenses with restrictions?

why are the restrictions that the GPL or AGPL puts on you okay to still be called "free", but Apache 2 + Common Clause has restrictions that aren't "free"?

[detaro]

For the term "Open Source", there is a list of criteria which from all I can tell goes back to pretty close to the creators of the term, and which is quite widely accepted: https://opensource.org/osd

[Klathmon]

I get that, but I'm asking why we adhere to that? I'd be more than happy to change the definition of "Open Source" if it means that more companies will participate, as doing so won't entirely rob them of most of their income from that product.

In fact, I'd consider it a significant improvement over the concept of "open core" that has been becoming more and more popular, where the core 80% of a product is open source, but the last 20% isn't, making it so you need to either pay or build that last 20% yourself to use the software.

Contrast with an "open source, except you can't sell it", you'd be more likely to get the whole 100% of the software "open sourced" (as in all other aspects of open-source code, without the ability to sell it), people not using it for profit can benefit immensely, and those who are using it for profit can license it like anything else.

Ostracizing the latter because they don't adhere to strict definitions seems wrong, especially when pretty much all of the alternatives (aside from going full GPL/AGPL) means there is less code out there usable by people, and less users will have the ability to see the code they use.

[detaro]

I'd personally prefer if the various proposals for these things picked their own term and filled that positively (e.g. one recent example used a label along the lines of "fair licensing").

Many projects have build on the foundation of these principles (E.g. Debian, where they originated, accepts only compliant software in the core distro) Many people feel quite strongly about things that can be perceived as corporate interests infringing on the ideals, and I think it would muddle the waters even further, and changing the term should have really widespread support to not feel icky. It's a departure from old ideas, it's not wrong to clearly acknowledge that, and unwillingness to do that looks somewhat questionable IMHO.

[Klathmon]

Like all good arguments, this one comes down to semantics!

I'm not going to argue about what a word or phrase "should" mean, but I am going to say that I think the FOSS community could benefit from being more open to different views in this area.

I think this is a case of dogmatism (that might not be the right word here, in this case i mean overly adhering to definitions) that is causing the entire community to be worse off.

Similar to how you said many people see the unwillingness to adopt a new term as "infringing on the ideals" of the original, I am seeing an attempt to be more honest and straightforward about the intent and ability to use a product.

GPL and friends "blackmail" companies into wanting to choose the proprietary license. It may not mean to do that, and there is normally no ill intentions, but it does in my experience.

Contrasted to Apache 2 + Common Clause, it's upfront about what you can and can't do. You can use this under the apache 2, unless you want to sell it, and then you can't. There's no need to dance around the fact, or try to play games where you don't "technically" restrict the right to sell, but in practice you do, or you introduce technical complexity to avoid triggering rather arbitrary parts of a license. The "official definition" is causing users to be in a worse position in some cases.

We can argue over semantics until the end of time, but at the end of the day "fair licensing" means nothing to me, but "open source" or "open source with restrictions" does. If the concept of the term "open source" changes, I feel nobody will be really impacted for the worse. Debian won't start suddenly allowing less-free software in their core, they will just continue to use the definition they do now and the list of licenses which are acceptable that they do now. But what will happen is we will see more experimentation with monetization methods that don't rely on loopholes or technicalities in existing licenses to achieve the same thing in practice.

[staticassertion]

> Meanwhile as a free software author, I'm very happy to see smaller companies experimenting with methods to protect their work in whatever way they see fit. Hopefully something "socially acceptable" comes from all this that might be useful to me at some stage in future.

Me too. I like to see companies trying out these ways of making OSS a reasonable choice.