[marknadal]

Edsu seems to rely on federated services.

Email, similarly, unfortunately fell to convenience - GMail, with Google selling your data.

The parent brings up a good point, how do we know Edsu won't betray its users? Or that it won't become dominated by a centralized provider?

I'd love to hear an answer.

For me, our team decided to take a route that cannot be compromised - your identity belongs to you, fully decentralized (https://gun.eco/docs/Todo-Dapp), yet can do 0-server password resets and other conveniences.

[larkeith]

I know I'm a bit of a broken record, but a <noscript> notice that JS is required is always appreciated rather than a blank page.

[marknadal]

Apologies, yeah, the site has an interactive coding tutorial that teaches you to write and run your JS. <noscript> would be good - make a PR? https://github.com/gundb/gun-site/blob/master/docs/src/index...

[heathjohns]

I absolutely sympathize with the concern - but I don't believe it's an a priori solvable problem.

Bitcoin is theoretically fully decentralized, but when I sold mine off it took 2 days to sync the chain - I get why people use Coinbase. I'd still be running my own email server right now if it weren't for spam.

My point is that I think there's inflection points - when weaknesses in design or implementation become apparent - where centralization can get a foothold, and I don't think it's inevitable which course things take at those points. HTTP hosting, for example, has some big players, but it's still very much a commodity.

I realize that this is a crowded field, with lots of contenders, like yours. I think it's an important enough problem that it warrants parallel attempts, so that at least one of them sticks. Edsu picks a very specific strategy, which is that it's a compromise - it's not like, say, IPFS in its level of decentralization. For an app platform, I think there's challenges enough at any level of decentralization, and Edsu tries to b-line it straight there by being very orthodox and old-skool in nearly every other way. I thought it was a good bet, but only time will tell.

Props for the password resets, BTW. The importance of that feature is underappreciated :)

[marknadal]

I admire that.

Don't let any counter argument ever stop you. Parallel experiments are critical for success.

With that said, can't we say that the federated experiment has already played out? Particularly, in email?

What new innovation or changes do you think will make the story play out differently this time around, versus outright P2P/decentralization?

Thanks!

[heathjohns]

(Oh man, sorry, this ended up being an essay!)

Take, for instance, statically-hosted HTTP: if I'm, say, hosting at AWS and I want to switch to Netlify, it's trivial - I just change the place I upload my files to and switch the DNS. To me that's a complete success in decentralization - there's no hassle, no compatibility problems, no one other than me even knows that I've made the change.

So I don't see it as federated being a lost cause, I see it as a protocol needing to be an HTTP not an email.

For Edsu, it's something that I've considered at every design choice. For instance, the data storage format fully specified and trivial, and hopefully therefore trivially transferable. And there's features like transparent proxying/forwarding of usernames. But I'll absolutely admit I've not been able to completely mitigate it, aside from urging people to BYOD (Bring Your Own Domain).

However, a lot of it comes down factors that aren't the protocol itself. I'm hoping that Edsu's userbase is mostly just the open source community, with its consolidation-hostile "herding cats" nature. When Facebook first showed up, it struck me as a home page for people who didn't want to deal with HTML. So in a way, it was a bifurcation of HTML users, with the technical and non-technical people each going their own way. And in the technical people's world, HTML stayed a commodity.

SSH is another successful federated protocol - but only in the technical community. My family members don't use SSH, and that's just fine with me. That's one big advantage relative to alternatives that focus on social networking - Edsu is useful even if only a minority of people use it. And even email had 22 years before Gmail happened - if we've got 2 decades before we need to come up with a better thing than Edsu because the eternal September boat finally docked, I think that's fine.

So for sure, the gestalt at the moment is that full decentralization is the way to go. Edsu is a hedge - a bet against that. Federated is the devil we know, and there's successful examples of it avoiding its biggest problem. On the other hand, I think full decentralization's challenges are still unknown, and so A) it's unclear if it's any more resistant to centralization (a la Coinbase), and B) it might have other emergent bugbears that are an even bigger problem.

I think only time will tell.

[marknadal]

Hey, great stuff here.

Well stated, kindly argued.

I really look forward to what you build now, 6months, 2 years+ from now. :)

[heathjohns]

Very nice of you to say. Thanks for your interest, and best of luck :)

[StavrosK]

From a five-second glance at their website, the main selling point is that you can self-host it.