[mcguire]

If the worst thing you can say about a programming language is that you don't like it's syntax, then it is a pretty damn good language.

Lisp (or Scheme, in this case) is a very simple language that gets essentially everything right.

[int_19h]

It's not the only thing people complain about ; merely the first one. And I don't think anyone can seriously claim that Common Lisp is a simple language. Powerful pragmatic languages never are.

As far as syntax goes, the proof is in the pudding. All languages have people gripe about some part of their syntax or another, but it's clear from experience that "OMG parentheses" is exceptionally prevalent. Hand-waving it away as something that people just don't get because of lack of prior exposure is not really sound - somehow other languages don't get similar complaints (at least, not as universally, and not to the same magnitude) with first-time users. Besides, why is there a lack of exposure? Why, because everything else is different. But why is it different? Isn't the obvious conclusion that Algol syntax family is vastly more prevalent for the simple reason that people prefer it, and simple homoiconicity is not sufficiently enticing?

All arguments in favor of Lisp syntax feel like they ultimately boil down to "you're holding it wrong". And that may well be so - but if so many people are finding it so awkward to hold, isn't that prima facie evidence of ergonomic deficiency? I don't claim to understand why Algol-style is easier. Maybe the way our visual processing works is just better with more varied punctuation? That's something for psychologists and brain scientists and maybe linguists to figure out. But in the meantime, we could at least acknowledge the way things are. I really like Lisp as a collection of ideas (not just the usual ones like HOF and macros, but also stuff like e.g. symbol-based namespacing, or the sheer flexibility of CLOS). But lispers have to ask themselves why, instead of Lisp seeing wider adoption, other languages - that came literally decades later, so "upstart" would be a very polite way to describe them in this context! - become vastly more successful than Lisp by appropriating its cherry-picked features.

[kazinator]

The complainers are non-users; it's just a meme, like picking on Cobol.

So many computing languages have come and gone over the years; the number that have been created vastly outnumber those that have ever been popular, let alone that are now popular.

Lisp is amazingly vibrant as a family. People are still excited about it and there is development work going on. That's amazing for something with such old roots.

I added two instructions to the virtual machine this morning, and used them in the compiler of a Lisp dialect to eke out a little performance gain. Wo hoo!

The haters can all go stuff it.

[int_19h]

> The complainers are non-users

Of course they are not. If you put on a shoe, and it's uncomfortable, you just go get a better shoe that is. This does not negate the validity of the question: why was the first shoe uncomfortable?

[insertcredit]

Lisp always catered to people with a certain state of mind. It was never a language positioned for popular appeal, and by that I mean the masses of 9-5 "brogrammers" we have today. Looking at how many people fall in love (or not) with SICP, today, and the reasons they give validates this line of reasoning. Lisp and SICP are meant for inquisitive thinkers and hackers who are willing to go DEEP. If you can superficially dismiss Lisp (and all the geniuses that worked with and improved it over the years) in the manner that you do, then certainly, Lisp is clearly not for you. You are not an artist. You are most definitely not a hacker.

You seem to think that popularity should be the prime consideration when it comes to programming language design. This is what gave us PHP and Javascript. I dare say that the people that use Lisp today (and there are plenty of those) do so because nothing else will be as good to them. They love the language. I've known people who moved jobs and got less money in order to work with Lisp. What does that say about the language?

[kazinator]

If we go with this analogy honestly, we have to recognize that the vast majority of the programming world is hobbling around in prescribed footwear, and a good lot of it has bits of gravel and broken glass.

[3b9cd7355317f55]

> Besides, why is there a lack of exposure? Why, because everything else is different. But why is it different? Isn't the obvious conclusion that Algol syntax family is vastly more prevalent for the simple reason that people prefer it, and simple homoiconicity is not sufficiently enticing?

That is just confusing cause and effect.

> All arguments in favor of Lisp syntax feel like they ultimately boil down to "you're holding it wrong". And that may well be so - but if so many people are finding it so awkward to hold, isn't that prima facie evidence of ergonomic deficiency?

You are confusing cause and effect again, this time by implying that there is something fixed about the way people learn languages (Chomsky's "language organ"). Learning is not like the shape of your hand.

Once you learn structured editing, Lisp code can be written and changed in much fewer keystrokes than code expressed in a more complicated grammar, which is actually ergonomic.

[int_19h]

> That is just confusing cause and effect.

And what is the evidence to that claim?

I'll grant you that I haven't given any evidence for my claim, either. But, again, the onus is on those claiming that syntax doesn't matter to prove so, against overwhelming practical evidence (showcased by user count) that it does.

[fasquoika]

>Lisp (or Scheme, in this case) is a very simple language that gets essentially everything right.

I have to wonder if you actually know all that much about Scheme. Undelimited continuations, for example, are pretty much strictly broken. I like Scheme, but to claim it's flawless is kinda ridiculous.