[najirama]

I downvoted your(the above)comment. Why?

#1 - You contradict yourself implicitly with this defense. If a quote needs more context to have impact, then it is a shitty quote, which is what the OP said plainly.

#2 - 'Juvenille' and 'simple' are synonymous in this context. Period. Jay-z lyrics are more often then not, ridiculously vapid of substance or depth. Musical kool-aid.

#3 - Jay-z is a man who made his money ruining the lives of thousands by selling drugs, and millions more by being a horrific influence. He is a man who has admittedly attempted murder on more than one occasion. He is a man who has used and debased women proudly. He is a man of many transgressions. And I could look past all of them if he did not glorify them so.

Yet he does - so shamelessly in fact that its revolting to witness. His wealth and the adoration of the mindless sheep who buy his "music" are the justification he uses to continue to do so.

He says he'll always rap about variations on the same themes: drug hustling, business boasts, luxury hopscotching from Gucci to Louis Vuitton to the new Dior suit he says is a perfect fit.

I'm sorry his money and "accomplishments" and his poor excuse for music do not make this a praiseworthy man.

[catshirt]

I'd downvote you respectfully- but I can't. :)

#1 - You're treating the quoted text as (I quote) "a quote". It's not. It's a small piece of a much larger whole. (I see your point- but it's wrong. I will elaborate in the next bullet).

#2 - Like the first statement- it's a mistake for you to speak factually on something so subjective. We're talking about art here, right? "Period" is especially offensive since clearly so many people disagree. Juvenile and simple are never synonymous. That's not to say they can't live mutually, but that certainly is not "synonymous". Period. Just the fact that people have agreed suggests he is delivering the emotion he intends to with his art. Unless, of course, you can tell me what his true intentions were with the lyric?

#3 - I'm going to make a fair assumption that you've lived a relatively privileged life. By this- I mean I'm pretty sure you didn't grow up in Bedstuy. I certainly don't believe that relieves him of his poor judgement, but I hope it helps invoke some situational empathy. Likewise, do you consider yourself not praiseworthy because of the mistakes you've made?

Edit - I assume a downvote one minute after a post is either accidental or negligent.

[najirama]

Quite frankly - you didn't respond to any of the objectives I raised. But I will respond strictly to the one's you've made up.

#1 - You're treating the quoted text as (I quote) "a quote". It's not. It's a small piece of a much larger whole.

Hmm - last I checked, a small piece of a larger whole IS a quote. Webster's definitively settles this in my favor.

#2 - No - there is no subjectivity involved in the claim that his lyrics are 'juvenile' and 'simple' especially when the man himself has said so on several occasions, both in verse and out. (See the song: Moment Of Clarity) If the artist himself says he 'dumb downed' his lyrics, I think its purely factual to then say his lyrics are 'simple'.

#3 - Pardon me, you don't know a damned thing about me or how I grew up. So no, your assumption is not fair. I've seen the gutter in my life. I've lived in places that I gather you are only familiar with through Jay-z songs. So forgive me if I take a particular offense to this comment.

Situational empathy? Are you kidding me? I suspect this kind of careless, 'there are are few better options' mentality stems from a brutal ignorance of what inner-city life is really like. So let me just help you out by saying there are thousands of kids from these terrible situations, (many of whom I work with weekly), who do not deal drugs, who stay in school, who pursue scholarship, who do not idolize Jay-z and his calling cards, thug-culture, gun violence, promiscuity, drugs, and death. Unfortunately for all of us, these kids are in the vast minority.

[catshirt]

"...there are thousands of kids from these terrible situations, (many of whom I work with weekly), who do not deal drugs, who stay in school, who pursue scholarship, who do not idolize Jay-z..."

My argument stems from my assumption that there are also thousands of kids from terrible situations, who don't deal drugs, who stay in school, and do idolize Jay-Z.

If I'm wrong in the above assumption, then you're entirely right; my argument has no ground. Perhaps my optimism is blinding. If my assumption is correct, then is it not safe to say that there are other more compelling forces than Jay-Z leading youth into drugs or crime? The italicized is the point that I am trying to make entirely.

I don't think we're disagreeing on facts here. By situational empathy I'm not suggesting Jay-Z has no other choices. It's just my personal opinion that I would rather be inspired by Jay-Z's ambition to overcome such an unfortunate situation, rather than to condemn him for his past.

[matwood]

#3 - Jay-z is a man who made his money ruining the lives of thousands by selling drugs, and millions more by being a horrific influence. He is a man who has admittedly attempted murder on more than one occasion. He is a man who has used and debased women proudly. He is a man of many transgressions. And I could look past all of them if he did not glorify them so.

So I'll assume you have been perfect your entire life? He raps about what he knows and who he his, and he wasn't perfect. If you have listened to more than a lyric or two off the radio you would hear him rapping about being young and stupid and growing up and maturing.

[gnaritas]

> If you have listened to more than a lyric or two off the radio you would hear him rapping about being young and stupid and growing up and maturing.

That doesn't make one praiseworthy; regretting your sins doesn't erase them. If he's really had a past violent enough that he's attempted murder a few times--and I don't know that that's true and am making no claim it is--then he's not worthy of praise no matter how good he is for the rest of his life, he still did it. Most people grow up without any such severe regrets. Most do stupid things while young, not horrible things.

[BrandonM]

Growing as a person and improving the human condition are some of the most virtuous things that one can do. Someone doing those things should not be condemned for life because of past mistakes.

Your expressed belief seems to reflect the attitude of the current American criminal justice system, a system that is very bad at rehabilitation: it tends to turn minor offenders into hardened criminals.

Any improvement is worthy of praise. Any contribution is worthy of gratitude. Denying that to someone because past mistakes is very disingenuous. Pretending that people are static characters like some bad sitcom is short-sighted and naïve.

There is no good and evil, only people with different motives. If you've never grown up wondering where you're going to live next week or where your next meal is going to come from, then you can't understand the thinking of someone who has, and you're in no place to judge their actions.

[gnaritas]

Any improvement is worthy of praise, that doesn't make the person worthy of praise. You don't just get to pretend the past didn't happen and the people you hurt don't exist. Some things are unforgivable and nothing can ever make up for it; ever.

Yes, people change and grow, that doesn't mean you get to leave your past behind and pretend it never happened. You murder someone, you're a murderer forever, not just until you realize it was wrong.

> There is no good and evil, only people with different motives.

I don't agree, though I'd never use the words good and evil, I'd use right and wrong and some things are objectively wrong.

> If you've never grown up wondering where you're going to live next week or where your next meal is going to come from, then you can't understand the thinking of someone who has, and you're in no place to judge their actions.

I did grow up that way, and I am in a place to state my opinion on their actions.

[Maascamp]

Try growing up where he did before preaching from your pedestal.

[gnaritas]

I'm sorry, do you know how I grew up? No, I didn't think so. Growing up in Brooklyn is not an excuse for bad behavior, nor did he have it particularly rough.

[megablast]

While I do not agree with the poster you are responding to, there is a lot of room between being a drug dealer and being not-perfect. All people aren't perfect, but most aren't drug dealers.

The problem maybe that he glorifies drug dealers to a certain extent. And I am sure you will agree, that we need less drug dealers, and need to make it less attractive.

[polynomial]

Agree. Let's start with the tobacco and alcohol industries, since our tax dollars are subsidizing them.

[palish]

Jay-z is a man who made his money ruining the lives of ... millions by being a horrific influence.

...?

[untamedmedley]

What's entertainment for a lot of Jay-Z's listeners is more like a guidebook for far too many young black men (and the women who chase men like him). I personally like rap and know that if you dig deeper into many of Jay-Z's songs, you'll find more substance, but that doesn't negate the fact that he has a far more negative than positive influence on people who need all the positive role models they can get.

I upvoted the comment above yours because I see his (and other rappers) influence firsthand among friends and family members and it's really very depressing. Sometimes I don't know how I justify listening to his music...

[matwood]

There are very few perfect role models. I would argue that the best roles models are the ones who made mistakes, learned from them and then kept moving forward.

People also tend to hear themselves in music. They hear the parts they relate with and block out the parts they don't. I hear Jay-Z and hear a story about a kid who had nothing, did what he had to do to survive and kept working till he made it. You don't even have to go that deep into his tracks to start getting a lot of good motivational lyrics. He has an entire song (with some Notorious Big dubbed in) talking about never getting lazy to keep working and 'treat your last like your first.'

[trustfundbaby]

> He has an entire song (with some Notorious Big dubbed in) talking about never getting lazy to keep working and 'treat your last like your first.'

My 1st song ... favorite of mine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_1st_Song

[catshirt]

Why is it that so many entrepreneurs find his lyrics inspiring and focus on his positive change- and "many young black men" see his reference to his past as a "guidebook"? The answer is because his art is subjective.

He does obviously have a responsibility to make sure he is a positive role model; but the fact that his lyrics very clearly reference his past in relation to his present- makes me wonder why anyone would focus their energy on emulating his past when they can see the success his positive ambition has brought him.

Lastly, can you cite your sample of "many young black men"? Does this source also include the amount of young black men who were inspired by his lyrics to overcome?

[untamedmedley]

No, the answer is NOT that art is subjective. I don't think it can be boiled down that easily, but if I were to try and answer succinctly, I would say the difference is there because black people, specifically African Americans, live in a culturally parallel America where there are different rules about what is and isn't acceptable. There is intense pressure on Black men to be "hard" and the way to express that is usually laid out in song.

I actually DON'T think it's his responsibility to be a role model. BUT I think it's wrong to glorify his success without saying something about the path he walked/walks to obtain it. He is 40-something and STILL writing lyrics about selling drugs.

As for citing examples, I'm sorry, I haven't been keeping a running log of the number of funerals I've been to, the guys I've known who've gotten shot, the women (including myself) who've been physically harassed by guys trying to re-enact the latest video, the children who are lost to drug addicted parents, and every other societal ramification that comes from supporting hip hop culture without qualifying/recognizing the damage it does to the black community. I live it, I think that's enough.

[catshirt]

"There is intense pressure on Black men to be "hard" and the way to express that is usually laid out in song."

I understand this, and it is also exactly my point. I have not been exposed to the elements that really any impoverished America (or wherever) faces. This is why I'm not affected in such a negative way if I listen to Jay-Z. The fact that there is differentiation at all is what makes it subjective.

Rereading my post; I could have been more clear. I absolutely did not intend to suggest that the subjectivity was the reason for the pressures of any different cultures. I am suggesting that these pressures where the reason for the emulation.

Which is obviously unfortunate, but I don't believe his fault. There are lots of pressures encouraging black males to be hard, I just don't think Jay-Z is one of them. Even compared to other relatively tame mainstream rappers (say, 50 cent).

If I can make a relevant reference (sometimes I cannot): consider any artist who has ever been scrutinized for the "negativity" of their production.

If I can make a relevant analogy (sometimes I cannot): "lessons learned".

[GHFigs]

Thanks for your "analysis". Clearly you've given this a lot of "thought". We've obviously "progressed" since the 80s, and I feel very "reassured" that "race" and "class" are no longer barriers to social mobility.

If a quote needs more context to have impact, then it is a shitty quote...

Is that why you conveniently left off the tail of your own quote? For "impact"?

"He says he'll always rap about variations on the same themes: drug hustling, business boasts, luxury hopscotching from Gucci to Louis Vuitton to the new Dior suit he says is a perfect fit.They're all narrative devices:"

[untamedmedley]

I'm sorry but this idea that you get a pass for drug dealing and misogynistic lyrics because you are black and from a poor background needs to just die.

There are options that don't involve poisoning the very community you claim to care about through drugs and promoting a lifestyle/"profession" that can get someone killed or sent to jail.

[GHFigs]

What I meant and what you appear to be ascribing to me are separated by such a wide gulf that I must have communicated very poorly, indeed.

I am not saying anybody gets a pass for anything.

I am saying that the comment above has simply substituted a set of new rules for when someone can be praised (e.g. "you can't have ever been a drug dealer") in place of the old ones (e.g. "you can't be black") with the same puritanical intent of undermining anything the target of the criticism might have actually accomplished.

It's tempting to think that this acts as a filter, keeping the riff-raff out of the pantheon of saints, but in practice it only rewards large-scale ignorance, subterfuge, and mythologizing.

[makeramen]

like what options?

Jay-Z promotes ambition, through whatever means necessary.

Lots of things get people killed and/or sent to jail.

Zuckerberg profits off the millions of college students "dumb enough" to waste their precious time "socializing" instead of studying like our society says they should. And don't forget the videos of myspace obsessed children and the like, I'm sure there are people out there who have died of social media related things, it's just not as easily attributed as a cause of death.

Similarly Jay-Z just happened to profit from people "dumb enough" to buy the drugs he sold. It was an opportunity, and he capitalized on it.

You have to work with what you got. It's just the way the world works. I'm pretty sure if you put Zuckerberg in the hood, he'd turn out to be a dealer and give Jay-Z computers in his childhood and he'd probably be a hacker. It's a combination of the ambitious troublemaker personality with the environment that makes what these people have become.

In a sense, you could say Jay hacked the coke game, and was smart(lucky?) enough to get out before he got into too much trouble.

[untamedmedley]

Jay-Z promotes ambition, through whatever means necessary.

Exactly. ::sigh::

[catshirt]

If I can correct that sentiment: The reason Jay-Z is inspirational is because he promotes ambition regardless of your situation.

[ori_b]

I agree, we shouldn't look up to Zuckerberg either. Both are doing rather slimy and morally questionable things, and I would argue that we should find both of them distasteful.