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by todayiamme 5719 days ago
It's not alarmism, what I'm saying is that this civilization is unsustainable by any metric you care to throw at it. We've over run our phosphorous reserves. We're depleting energy, land and the ability to feed our civilization. We're systematically amputating ourselves while worrying about the blood spilling on the floor.

It just strikes me how far away from reality this debate has taken us. Yes, none of this will kill the planet or this species for that matter, but it will kill this civilization.

In fact, this has happened again and again throughout history as Jared Diamond points out in his book, Collapse. When you see the record of civilizations and the choices they have made then 5 key metrics stand out;

1) Environmental damage

2) Climate change

3) Hostile neighbors

4) Friendly trade partners

5) The societies response to it's environmental problems

What's interesting is how he compared these metrics and individually isolated cases in histories where only a few were present and used them as examples to see what was going on. It's a beautiful and thrilling exploration between the factors, stakeholders at play and why those choices were made (as far as we know). A comment simply won't do that entire thing justice.

The thing is that there is a delicate interplay between our surroundings and our civilization and stretching it too far without healing won't lead to pleasant consequences. A civilization is a delicate state of things that needs to be maintained at a certain cost be it resources, intellectual or cultural capital. Everything joins to create an integrated whole and that's the problem; you can't have one without the other.

So, essentially we need to make a series of choices about how we are doing things and how we could do them if we want this period of prosperity to survive beyond a few decades.

Yes there is hope, but there's loads of work to do.

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse:_How_Societies_Choose_...

1 comments

>It's not alarmism, what I'm saying is that this civilization is unsustainable by any metric you care to throw at it

That sounds like alarmism to me.

You can find examples of writers worrying about running out of the specific resources industry used at the time running back to the 19th century. The modern environmentalist movement has predicted apocalypse like clockwork every ten years dating back to 1960.

The current environmentalist movement is much more well-funded and professional. I guess time will tell if that means they are more accurate.

I'm not familiar with Diamond's book, but it's worth pointing out that the civilizations he examines are at a much earlier phase of technology. Individual differences often confound authors who try to paint historical trends with a broad pen.

Actually, he backs up his claims with pretty hard data. He draws conclusion from a wide variety of metrics and evidence like core samples, records, tool use, geological standing, possible trade relations, genetic sampling etc.

You really need to read him. Check his wikipedia page out ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Diamond )

>>>are at a much earlier phase of technology<<<

Ironically, our ancestors said analogous things. Are we truly that different?

>"Ironically, our ancestors said analogous things. Are we truly that different?"

The difference between human society before 1800 and today is huge.

Nevertheless, we can't wish new, needed technology into existence. Sometimes it develops quickly, sometimes it doesn't.