[barry-cotter]

If the normal way of consuming caffeine was snorting a powder that was mostly the pharmaceutically active conpund and bulking agents they’d look reasonably similar. If cocaine was available legally as tea or as powder but taxed much higher there’d be a lot of coca tea drinkers who wouldn’t touch the powder.

The dose, and the delivery method, make the poison.

[nkozyra]

That's why I specifically wrote to the point of effect. You can snort caffeine to the point of effect and healthy individuals will be fine.

The distinction between compounds goes far beyond dosage and delivery mechanism.

[jrochkind1]

> You can snort caffeine to the point of effect and healthy individuals will be fine.

How can you possibly know that? Do you have scientific research to cite?

I would assume that someone that ingests enough caffeine (by any means) to "the point of effect" (whatever that means) is going to have some serious risk of heart attack. I know several people who have wound up in the hospital for monitoring after drinking, oh, about 8 cups of coffee within several hours. They didn't realize it was the coffee, they were just like, uh oh, something is not right with my heart beat. The doctors say "how much coffee have you had today? Yeah, you'll probably be okay, but don't do that again."

[nkozyra]

> How can you possibly know that? Do you have scientific research to cite?

Of course, this is well worn territory:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5445139/

The method of delivery is not my claim, so someone would need to show that snorting to effect has a greater negative effect on health than drinking.

"Effect" here typically means desired or pleasurable palpable impact on mood or behavior. For both caffeine and coca that typically entails euphoria and an increase in energy. Beyond a certain point that trend reverses and negative effect come into play.

Anecdotes aren't particularly useful metrics for these discussions, frankly.

[jrochkind1]

From that article,

> The threshold of caffeine toxicity appears to be around 400 mg/day in healthy adults

That's only about 4 cups of coffee, man! Or just two "NoDoz".

The article does not mention snorting caffeine. It seems reasonable to me to predict that if people starting snorting caffeine in an effort to get greater neuropharmacalogical effects, it would be pretty easy to go over 400mg.

There are few (if any?) documented deaths from caffeine overdose from drinking coffee (or even energy drinks), probably because the delivery mechanism means you need to drink a lot of beverage to get that much caffeine (8+ cups of coffee is really gonna fill up your stomach etc.). There ARE documented deaths from caffeine overdose from caffeine pills etc. though. Mechanism of delivery matters. The range between usual caffeine dose and an amount that can be dangerous is smaller than most people think (in that respect similar to aspirin and acetaminophen).

I am not sure what you mean by "to the point of effect", but I don't believe the literature you cite supports your claim that "You can snort caffeine to the point of effect and healthy individuals will be fine." Method of delivery does matter, in part because it effects practical dosages.

In fact, we don't need to guess, while as far as I know nobody's snorting it, highly-concentrated caffeine in powder/granule form (presumably similar to what we'd hypothetically imagine people snorting) _is_ documented as dangerous:

> "FDA Warns Consumers About Pure and Highly Concentrated Caffeine"

> "The FDA advises consumers to avoid pure and highly concentrated caffeine sold in bulk as powdered and liquid dietary supplements."

> "It can be extremely difficult to accurately measure pure and highly concentrated caffeine, and you can easily consume a dangerous or even lethal amount."

> "Dietary supplements consisting of pure or highly concentrated caffeine are potentially dangerous, and serious adverse events can result, including death."

-- https://www.fda.gov/Food/DietarySupplements/ProductsIngredie...

> "On May 27, his brother found him unresponsive on their living room floor. In an effort to increase his energy, Mr. Stiner had used caffeine powder a friend had purchased on Amazon, but miscalculated the dosage, overdosed and died. The medical examiner said the cause of death was “cardiac arrhythmia and seizure, due to acute caffeine toxicity due to excessive caffeine ingestion.”"

-- https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/05/18/caffeine-powder-po...

[nkozyra]

I don't think you're making a counterargument here; I'm not saying caffeine doesn't have negative impacts on health at any level. I'm saying to the point of effect (which again I detailed), it is safer than cocaine is comparably.

The mechanism of ingest only matters if the latency of effect is so great that a user goes past the point of pleasurable effect. Drinking or snorting cocaine has negative physiological effect closer to the point of pleasurable pyschological effect than does caffeine.

[jrochkind1]

That's like saying fentanyl isn't particularly dangerous, because you aren't going to OD on the level that is pleasurable. Not how it works. If the difference in dose between what you would have wanted and a toxic dose is relatively small, that makes it dangerous.

Pure or high-concentration caffeine is quite clearly dangerous.

[paulgrant999]

I can vouch for natural caffeine, getting you high. I used to pack some of the energy drink ingredients, and there was definitely a point where it was psycho-active.