[RobertoG]

There is a very simple fact: in order to develop an economy you need investment, not austerity. There is not democratic country that would accept for its population what the Europeans have forced on Greece.

You want Greece start thinking in the EU like "us" when they deal with China, but, at the same time, we Europeans, talk about how "they fucked" it.

You can't have it both ways: or Greece are "us" or Greece are "they".

In my opinion, the debt crisis showed them, and others, clearly that it's not* the former.

*edited: added the 'not'.

[thefounder]

As long as there is no fiscal union you can't simply share the loss between member states. Is as simple as that. We can talk about we and the "EU budget" all time long but if we want to talk about "our" money and "our" debt the we need some kind of fiscal union. We can't talk about "our" money only when we get bankrupted.

[pjc50]

Without a fiscal union there should never have been a monetary union.

[RobertoG]

..and many economist warned about it.

[growlist]

And politicians - pretty sure I recall that Michael Portillo predicted exactly the sort of problems the euro has been through over recent times.

[thefounder]

You would think that and here we are.

[RobertoG]

That's precisely my point.

You can't talk about "our" European exterior policy and then, when the time arrive impose a bigger austerity, in part of the population of Europe, causing a bigger and longer crisis that the Great Depression.

Never mind Greece previous sins, that would never be done to a German land or a USA state, for instance

Ergo, there is not "we".

If something, Brussels, has show to be the antagonist to the Greeks (and not only the Greeks).

[saiya-jin]

> in order to develop an economy you need investment, not austerity

That's a nice theory, but considering all the stuff that came out about how dysfunctional Greece, on outside they were just bunch of liars. How can any politician justify to voters such a decision?

If you lend somebody money to improve his life, and he burns through them by doing stupid things and lying to you, and has no way to pay back, do you lend them more "in order to develop"?

Btw if I recall correctly your suggestion is what Obama did - pumping more money into economy after 2008. From what I read it was very ineffective and basically trillion(s) were mostly wasted without lasting effect

[RobertoG]

For an alternative economic explanation of what happened, you can read other posts (mine and other) in here. Basically what it has been done is saving, by an indirect route, the Germans and French banks exposed to Greece without improving (worsening actually) the life of the people there.

Consider that, theoretically, the problem to be solved was the public debt and now, many years later, and after forcing the solution on the patient, the debt is the same or worst.

I have to say, that I find totally alien the moral perspective from wich somebody can say something like "they are a bunch of liars" about an entire country.

Who is the liar? the taxi guy in Athens? the children of the school in the corner? the old people that miss the drachma? the young people that had to leave the country?

Never mind where you are from, a little of introspection (and some history reading) will show you how you could be easily any one of them.