[chasote]

Your comment reminded me of this quote even though it might not entirely fit the topic at hand:

"I must study Politicks and War that my sons may have liberty to study Mathematicks and Philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematicks and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, musick, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelaine.” John Adams, Letter to Abigail Adams, May 12, 1780.

As I said, it might not apply to this overall discussion but I've always found it quite poignant. Sadly society is more apt to ridicule those who still pursue liberal arts due to it's economic opportunity costs. While technically correct I believe that should come from the viewpoint that this could be considered a sad failure in humanity's progress.

[burfog]

If only that were the end, but it is a cycle:

    Hard times create strong men,
    Strong men create good times,
    Good times create weak men,
    Weak men create hard times.

Progress is something desirable only when you are in the bad part of that cycle. When you are in the good part of that cycle, progress takes you around to the bad part.

[watwut]

I dont think that poem describes real world and real history. Hard times often generated men who did not created good times, but create even worst way more violent oppressive times. Think world wars, French revolution, communists in Russia etc.

Hard times create hard people and that that can have very unfortunate consequences.

And good times did not necessary created men who create hard times, they often created men wanted to keep things good.

[TeMPOraL]

> And good times did not necessary created men who create hard times, they often created men wanted to keep things good.

But did they? Looking at the world today, I feel that good times create men who take good times for granted, not understanding what made those good times possible in the first place, and who through inaction or cluelessness work to undo those things. See e.g. our generation working hard to undo all the improvements for the workers, ones which our great-^n-grandparents paid in blood for.

[watwut]

Given that I don't know which generation and country you are from, it is hard to counteract. I don't know who or what causes your great-^n-grandparents were fighting for. I have no idea about link between past wars and whatever your generation is undoing.

If anything else it sounds a bit like caricature. Past generation fought against others of the past generation. Members of past generations have different interests and some have good life others bad. So maybe it is more about which sub-group of whatever generation is winning and able to effectively push for own interests.

[TeMPOraL]

For the sake of context, I would be an early millennial from Poland.

But my point is applicable to pretty much the entire western world; the struggle of our great-^n-grandparents is the one against insanely bad working conditions in the XIX and early XX century. The one that gave us modern employment laws, which both my fellow millennials and gen-X'ers are trying hard to revert.

[burfog]

This is backwards. It is a good economy that made those employment laws possible. The good times came first.

Overdoing those employment laws will strangle the economy, pushing us around the cycle to hard times. It is the "weak men" who push for this, trying to avoid even the modest amount of suffering that is required to be competitive.

Backing off on those laws will delay collapse.

You really don't want to see the collapse. At that point, employment laws count for nothing. You work illegally or you starve.

[watwut]

I am not an expert on Polish history, but afaik, Polish became to have current employment laws not because employer/employee clashes (which happened more on west - GB and USA). Polish tended to emigrate.

The Polish history and current laws have a lot to do with legacy of Communism and how it came to be. Early XX century was more about moving toward war and then being in war and Russian threat.