[FLUX-YOU]

The passion/craftsman culture changed when we started selling our souls for the next ad-click or personal information collection system.

While it might have seemed good back then, we now have a massively cobbled-together web ecosystem. I know it's a cheap shot, but those same passionate people built the crap we have today. I don't think it speaks very highly of that time or the merits of passion.

(many individuals had passion back then and would be strongly against today's web practices -- I do get that)

When you start peeling away the layers of the career, the actual craft is only a portion of today's work. If I could code 8 hours a day, I would. But it's hard to spend a day in the workshop with that passionate, quiet, productive focus.

[jimmy1]

> The passion/craftsman culture changed when we started selling our souls for the next ad-click or personal information collection system.

I am really passionate about the information collection system I work on. I do my best to ensure data isn't leaked, everything is secure and encrypted. If you would like to offer a solution to the fact that the vast majority of people in this country now expect software to be free (save, some AAA video game titles), I am all ears. Until then, I am going to be passionate about what I do, but realistic as well as I have a family to provide for.

[twtw]

> If you would like to offer a solution to the fact that the vast majority of people in this country expect software to be free

This is critical. I think it even goes beyond this: most developers expect software they use to be open source. People have gotten used to the software from Google/Facebook/etc that they can develop and release as open source due to their essentially infinite revenue stream.

[FLUX-YOU]

>If you would like to offer a solution to the fact that the vast majority of people in this country now expect software to be free (save, some AAA video game titles), I am all ears.

Subscriptions? I pay for Netflix, Amazon Prime, Github, MS Office, a VPN, and probably a few others.

If you're B2B, use price per user/customer/developer? e.g. Highcharts was worth the money vs. free options.

The problem is there's no guarantee you don't also collect info or decide to play ads even if I pay for a subscription.

[mixmastamyk]

> do my best to ensure

Good to hear. The next dev, manager, owner on the team is not likely to be as conscientious however.

Once information is collected it is rarely deleted, so trust in random third parties is still not wise.

[jimmy1]

I trust that we all have a general vested interest in avoiding data breaches for sake of profits and public image. I do believe that we need a tad bit of regulation around data collection not because we are all shitheads that throw your data around, but for those couple of bad actors that ruin it for everyone to bring their businesses up to par with what the rest of us are doing -- but nothing as extreme as GDPR. This is America after all, and liberty is hard, but I still believe it's the most important principle. At the end of the day you are still entering an agreement to exchange your information for the use of the services, and you are at liberty to not enter into that agreement. It's obvious to me that people are not concerned with that enough that they are willing to shell out money for their email, content, recipes, craft ideas, photo storage, social platforms, payment platforms, and until the people change the business incentives will be focused on data collection. To not sound like I am on that high horse, I too utilize many of these services. The problem however for me is not unwillingness to pay, but as it stands right now there isn't a paid product that can compete with some of the services I get for free.

[throwaway713]

It’s an unpopular viewpoint on HN, but I truly don’t believe that using personal information to deliver targeted advertisements is immoral, provided that 1) a best effort is made to make people fully aware of what information is being collected and how it is being used, and 2) a best effort is made at keeping that data safe from being leaked.

I just genuinely don’t understand how if someone gives personal consent to use their provided data in a specific way, then the company is still acting immorally.

Society has moved forward over the last few decades in favor of people using their body however they like as long as consent is given and no one is hurt, so why is it not the same with information? Why is personal consent to use my information not enough, to the point where we want to force companies into a payment/subscription/no targeted ads model that may not actually work for their business?

[FLUX-YOU]

Consent in the digital world is fraught with difficulty:

1) Do you have to repeat consent every time the ToS or another policy changes?

2) What about repeating consent every time there is a feature change?

3) Should your consent remain after controversial events involving security (FB using 2FA phone #'s for ads; data breaches like Equifax)?

4) What about internal company changes like leadership changes at the executive level?

Unlike consent involving intimacy, there is no big red line where it clearly becomes non-consensual. You can technically delete all of the data, but no one has built something that does that and is trusted. There isn't a right-to-be-forgotten law in every country, so archiving sites can still retain this information anyway.

Plus, it could always be on some flash drive that a malicious employee passed to other companies. Large companies like Facebook have pockets where people can essentially operate with impunity or oversight for periods of time. The core issue here is that consent to one site proxies affirmative consent to share your information out to other sites.

As a hypothetical, would you give consent to Facebook knowing that they will then share all of that information with anyone who asks (every site, every 3-letter agency, every stranger from anywhere in the world who likes your bikini pictures)?

What if they say they won't share that information, but they do anyway? Tech companies move too fast for law to keep up, and once the information is duplicated to multiple parties, it's almost impossible to track down every copy with certainty.

[mixmastamyk]

I could agree in theory, it's just that 1 & 2 don't happen in the real world. (Outside of EU?) There are no incentives, responsibility, or consequences for folks once data has been acquired.

It's like the friend that swears they will pay you back if you would just lend them a substantial amount of money. Said enthusiasm drops 95% once the transaction has completed.

[realharo]

>we now have a massively cobbled-together web ecosystem

I don't think most older ecosystems were any better. For example Unix is a cobbled together mess. Autotools is a terrible mess of a build system, etc.

Big "professional" ecosystems aren't much better either. Just look at all the jokes like "fizzbuzz enterprise edition".