[buro9]

https://perkeep.org/ is the new(ish) name for Camlistore, created by Brad Fitzpatrick and with a lot of active developers.

From the home page (rather than the linked overview):

> Perkeep (née Camlistore) is a set of open source formats, protocols, and software for modeling, storing, searching, sharing and synchronizing data in the post-PC era. Data may be files or objects, tweets or 5TB videos, and you can access it via a phone, browser or FUSE filesystem.

Things Perkeep believes:

+ Your data is entirely under your control

+ Open Source

+ Paranoid about privacy, everything private by default

+ No SPOF: don't rely on any single party (including yourself)

+ Your data should be alive in 80 years, especially if you are

[0xbadcafebee]

> Your data should be alive in 80 years, especially if you are

How do they deal with obsolescence?

Software that used to exist 50 years ago doesn't run today, and most of those formats (if they aren't text formats) are either obsolete or completely unsupported. Emulators exist, but nobody actually uses it. Part of this is because software becomes obsolete over time, and part of that is because hardware becomes obsolete.

How are they going to make software today that will run on new computers in 80 years, or how will they make software and data formats backwards compatible for 80 years?

[derefr]

> Emulators exist, but nobody actually uses it.

Sure, "nobody" (i.e. a negligible number of people) is running emulations of consumer software, esp. non-networked consumer software.

Networked backend server software, on the other hand, is run under emulation in production all the time. It's roughly 80% of the point of IBM's z/OS product line: to continue providing backward-compatibility with their mainframes all the way back through the early 70s, by shipping hardware that runs a hypervisor that can continue running those old workloads under (accelerated!) emulation, without changes. Anyone business running "a mainframe" these days isn't running on the original hardware (which has long since broken down without component replacement availability), but rather running modern hardware that's emulating their original mainframe.

I suspect that any p2p data-storage network that achieves importance and has data an archivist would care about living on it, would be given the same treatment (if people don't just consistently write new clients for it on new platforms.)

[tialaramex]

I sympathize with your skepticism but I think 1968 is so quantitatively and qualitatively different that it's not a very helpful comparison.

In 1968 nobody had personal computers, they were not a thing. ASCII is still really new, "files" aren't really a thing yet, the Multics system is under development and nobody has yet made the pun "Unix" let alone named an operating system.

What formats are you thinking of that weren't text formats but are now "obsolete or completely unsupported" ? The Joint Technical Committee (home of JPEG, MPEG, and so on) isn't even an _idea_ yet, many of the people who'll form this committee are undergraduates or still in school. Machines aren't storing pictures, they're barely storing meaningful text, it's mostly numbers, big calculations.

If we ask about 40 years ago instead, things are hugely different. By this point Unix exists, ADVENT exists, ASCII has "won". There is no Internet, no X Window System yet, and there still isn't a Joint Technical Committee but already the documents, software and systems are familiar because we're still using them. At home there is Pong, and in pinball arcades the new Space Invaders, both are nicely emulated today.

[kbenson]

> I sympathize with your skepticism but I think 1968 is so quantitatively and qualitatively different that it's not a very helpful comparison.

It's sort of like automobiles in 1968 advertising how they are made with care and detail so they'll last, and made to be easy to work on so you can expect them to actually have people (or yourself) that know how to fix them decades later. People could easily come out and say most of what made a car in 1918 was very different to then, all the way down to the tires themselves. Industries that have had multiple decades of general use mature quite a bit, and people don't like to throw away stuff that works (or that they're fond of). We'll still have computers capable of running a von neumann architecture in 50 years, whether through hardware or software, and that's assuming we can't just port/compile to newer systems if they aren't as extreme of departures.

I still occasionally play computer games written in the 1980's, generally through dosbox or something similar. I think the most likely reason we have to lose access to running this software is if we lose access to running all software, in which case nobody will really care (not that I think that's remotely likely, just that it's the most likely scenario where that holds).

[0xCMP]

They've made fairly boring choices to store data which makes it fairly easy to rewrite perkeep in the future if that were to happen. However, it's likely that Go will be maintained in to the future.

Perkeep's format is basically chunks of files ("blobs") named after their sha256 hash which can be reindexed as needed. So while the files stored may require software which could be gone the files and etc. will be there in the worst case that the project disappears.

[Szpadel]

and metadata is stored in plain boring json because of the same reason

[yjftsjthsd-h]

> Emulators exist, but nobody actually uses it.

Disagree; I think the strongest example is DOSBox, through which DOS programs, of all things, are actually one of the least common denominators across an astonishingly wide set of platforms. Honestly, if I had to pick a format to use today that needed to hit as many platforms as possible and last as long as possible, I'd probably pick DOSBox, which is portable to Android, GNU/Linux, Darwin, NT, gaming consoles (at least Wii and Nintendo DS).... oh, Wikipedia actually has a better list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOSBox#Ports

Anyways, I'll concede that emulators aren't as popular as native apps on most platforms, but they certainly hold their own, especially for archival purposes.

[pjc50]

> Emulators exist, but nobody actually uses it.

They're very popular for games, and can be used to get old files out of many popular computers of the 80s.

[jazzyjackson]

I'd encourage you to check out this idlewords talk/blog "Web Design: The first 100 years" [0]

It presents a pretty compelling argument for why technology has a tendency to level out. I for one am confident that x86-64 binaries will still be running 50 years from now out of sheer inertia and the lack of any real practical jump in technology. (Computers of today are the 747s of 1969: good enough for almost everyone).

[0] http://idlewords.com/talks/web_design_first_100_years.htm

[otakucode]

Heh, I am glad to hear that it's the new name... I was going to feel kinda bad pointing out that Camlistore has been exactly what was built already for awhile.

I tried Camlistore a bit a couple years ago and it was neat, but still pretty early. And then it looked like no development was happening on it. I would have helped, but I believe it's in go which I am not experienced with. Does this name change come with a new release? Is Perkeep 0.1 markedly different from the previously available public release of Camlistore?

[pjc50]

Not only do I like this, I like their comparison page: https://perkeep.org/doc/compare

My own (slightly out of date) comparison list: https://github.com/pjc50/pjc50.github.io/blob/master/secure-...