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by nonbel 2836 days ago
Were these birds bigger than dinosaurs?

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/tetrapod-zoology/the-bi...

3 comments

According to the modern taxonomy, birds are dinosaurs, with a pretty straight lineage.
Thats what I meant to imply. Dinosaurs are a type of bird that were bigger than "elephant birds", so the headline is (most likely) wrong.
Perhaps you're thinking of the creatures we saw in Jurassic Park? Yeah, those are somewhat inaccurate. Velociraptor, for example, was the size of a turkey and covered in feathers, with its long tail held upwards, like this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velociraptor#/media/File%3AV...

Yeah, basically a weird bird.

The velociraptors in the book, and to a lesser degree the movie, were modelled after Deinonychus.

Michael Crichton thought, correctly, that Velociraptor was a better name.

No doubt. I still preferred the name Raptor to Gecko, too bad it couldn't stay that way.
> Dinosaurs are a type of bird

The opposite. Birds are a type of dinosaurs, but the biggest dinosaurs like Triceratops weren't birds. I'm not wrong, feathers were found in small or middle sized dinosaurs, smaller than the elephant birds.

Dinosaurs are not a type of bird, just as a rectangle isn't (necessarily) a square.
You have the direction of the time vector descriptor backwards.
I've never heard of a "time vector descriptor", so what do you mean?
Birds are a type of dinosaur called recently avian dinosaur. The other dinosaurs (non-avian dinosaurs) are definitely not a type of bird.

So no, the title is not really wrong unless there is a yet undiscovered bird that's even larger. The elephant bird was the biggest bird (or avian-dinosaur) that ever existed. It was smaller than other non-avian dinosaurs but these were not birds so no point comparing.

The confusion you are making is sometimes described as politician's syllogism. [0]

1) All birds are dinosaurs

2) All land dinosaurs are dinosaurs

3) Therefore, land dinosaurs are birds

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism

As long as we're on the topic, not all of what we (the laymen) think of as dinosaurs were dinosaurs! Maybe you knew that already but I only recently discovered that fact and now I'm sharing it. From the wikipedia page:

"Other prehistoric animals, including mosasaurs, ichthyosaurs, pterosaurs, plesiosaurs, and Dimetrodon, while often popularly conceived of as dinosaurs, are not taxonomically classified as dinosaurs. Pterosaurs are distantly related to dinosaurs, being members of the clade Ornithodira. The other groups mentioned are, like dinosaurs, members of Sauropsida (the reptile and bird clade), with the exception of Dimetrodon (which is a synapsid)."

Apparently some people think birds are dinosaurs and other people (sometimes even the same person) think dinosaurs are birds:

'There has been a recent revival of interest in the famous Early Triassic thecodont Euparkeria, and Welman (1995) has discovered a suite of avian-like anatomical features in the basicranium. Paul (2002:179), an ardent advocate of the “birds-are-dinosaurs,” and more recently, “dinosaurs-are-birds” school, admits that, “Euparkeria is a suitable ancestral type for birds … and … Euparkeria is a good ancestral type for all archosaurs.”' https://doi.org/10.1642/0004-8038(2002)119[1187:BADSAT]2.0.C...

I still don't see what this has to do with a "time vector descriptor".

google the constituents of the phrase and build it up from there

birds are dinosaurs and dinosaurs aren't birds

you've reversed the vectored direction of time in your claim

What does a classification have to do with time?

Edit: And what does "vector" add to your sentences?

I think since a vector has a direction, he’s suggesting that the direction of the vector is pointed “the wrong way” with respect to time
I'm not a dinosaur expert (but this is hacker news, so...). You know who else wasn't a dinosaur expert? All those people back in the 1800s who lumped theropods, sauropods, and everything else together and called them dinosaurs. So now the definition of dinosaur is, paraphrased from wikipedia, "anything from descended from the most recent ancestor of all the stuff we want to call a dinosaur". I can believe ostriches and elephant birds and small theropods are related. Can you believe the possibly imaginary Brontosaurus and T Rex are related? Is there an intellectually honest reason to lump them together?
Sure, there's an intellectually sound reason for the lumping: There was a long period of earth's history where enormous reptiles were prominent, and almost all but the crocodile family died out. So, it makes sense to have a word for all the age-of-reptiles reptiles we see in fossils. "Dinosaurs" works great. As such, it includes pterosaurs and sea reptiles even.
plesiosaurs and pterosaurs aren't currently considered dinosaurs.
Brontosaurus was rebranded as Apatosaurus.
Sort of. Apatosaurus was first, so Brontosaurus lost out as a junior synonym (first to name the things get to name the things, which gives us a silly name meaning "hyrax-like beast" - hyracotherium - for something that's obviously the dawn horse - eohippus)... except that there's very good reason now to believe that they weren't the same species.
Capybaras are the largest rodent but not the largest mammal. Elephants birds were the largest bird but not the largest dinosaur.
Moa, from New Zealand, were considerably taller (3.5-4m tall versus 3m tall) but much lighter (230kg versus 500kg).

https://hubpages.com/animals/Comparing-the-Moa-and-The-Eleph...