[WtfRuSerious]

Yeah, but gold is real, it's a real metal here in the physical universe, not only does it look good, it doesn't tarnish or rust ( to any real degree under normal circumstances ) with many niche uses beyond ornamental, just think about how much gold foil goes into something that's going to space... it is also one of the heaviest, most uniquely workable metals that isn’t dangerously radioactive.

My point is that it has an INTRINSIC value, not just an arbitrary value we've assigned to it, but a natural value that comes only to things that are actually naturally valuable... that statement may seem to be self referential, i.e. wet because not dry, but I think it makes the point I'm trying to get across, which is: there's a difference between that which IS valuable, and that which has value because WE assign it value.

Like tulips in pre-crash 1637, "bitcon" only has the value we assign to it, in reality it's nothing but numbers and we've plenty of those.

That it can and probably will decrease in value drastically when a majority of people realize it has no INTRINSIC value... well that should be warning enough to those wise enough to think about critically.

It's not like "market cap" really even applies to it here, yes each "coin" is assigned some value and the multiplication applied methodically does seem to come up with a giant number, but there are no REAL assets... it's not like it's a share of stock in a company that makes anything, it's all ethereal, there's absolutely nothing of value except the fact that somebody else is willing to exchange something of REAL value for it... when that's gone, the whole thing will be another story on Wikipedia...

[21]

> there's a difference between that which IS valuable, and that which has value because WE assign it value.

10% of the price of gold IS valuable, the other 90% is WE valuable. What does that say to you?

If you agree that bitcoin has at least 0.0001% IS valuable (for example for some collectors of digital artefacts), then where do you draw the line, what percentage of IS valuable do you require so that you would consider bitcoin having some INTRINSIC value as gold does?

[WtfRuSerious]

Yes, I agree with you that a portion of the value assigned to virtual currencies ( the IS value ) comes from the utility of the the thing... just like a portion of the value we assign to the U.S. Dollar comes from the utility ( you can carry it in your pocket and exchange it for stuff )... but understand that just like the dollar, we assign value to it because it's HARD to counterfeit ( and only because so ), you can't just make as many as you want easily.

Bitcoin, and most other virtual currencies, are only "hard" to counterfeit because limitations in current technologies ( math included ) make it so... What happens when that goes away?

What would the value of bitcoin be tomorrow if some scientist today, publishes a paper providing an easier way to factor large numbers? What about Moore's law? What about quantum computing and machine learning? What about breakthroughs in mathematics or cryptography? Start thinking about all the intellectual manpower working every day on any number of things that could make the very basis for bitcoin obsolete, and you start thinking that maybe the value we assign it is a bad bet.

As far as gold goes, until someone creates a philosopher's stone, or starts 3d printing gold atoms, I think we're safe to assume you would still have to mine the stuff and refine it, and that amount of work isn't going away anytime soon... and therefore the "value" of it isn't going to zero soon either.

[21]

Bitcoin can transition to a quantum resistant system before quantum computers are a reality. At the moment there is no clear post-quantum algo winner, but when the industry settles on one, bitcoin (and the whole world - SSL, ...) will switch. It's not the secp256k1 elliptic curve which defines bitcoin, it's just an implementation detail.

I'm pretty sure most cryptography experts would consider nuclear war more likely than a breakthrough in crypto which breaks bitcoin (and the rest of the world). Yes, it's possible, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

Gold supply is elastic, unlike bitcoin which is hard coded.

Gold mining is dictated by the gold price. When gold price goes up, miners start to dig again in regions that were too expensive before. When price goes down, they stop. With a suitable (huge) gold price, it makes sense to just filter it out from ocean water. And let's not even think about giant gold asteroids which are out there.

[PeterStuer]

Have you ever tried to get real gold for your 'on paper' gold?

[WtfRuSerious]

AFAIK you can buy real gold as much as you want whenever you want it: gold bullion, coins, jewelry... you name it

[PeterStuer]

That is circular reasoning. You can buy gold with money just like you can with bitcoins as well. There is no 'Gold Standard' to the former, nor the latter. Both are pure fiat currencies.

Most people when they say they 'hold gold in their portfolio' don't mean they have the metal lying in their safe. They usually hold shares in a tracking stock like [1], or are active in the commodities market speculating with futures and options on gold, or invested in gold mining companies.

Their is ofc also a real industrial demand for gold. Jewelry makers, electronics firms etc. will take delivery of and use the real metal to make products. For everyone else, it is just numbers in a computer that are transferred from account to account. even when Central banks buy and trade with each-other, the gold never leaves the vault (although it might sometimes be moved from stack to stack inside)

Lately trust in some of these vaults and the accessibility to the actual gold held there has declined, resulting in countries 'repatriating' their gold[2]. As you can imagine, this is not a trivial logistics operation. While the ownership may change, the actual gold never leaves the huge vaults of e.g. the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/markets/etfs/gld/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_repatriation

[sebchris]

There's a reason we call currencies like the dollar fiat currencies, because they only have the value that we give them. Bitcoin is similarly valued. As for gold, Bitcoin is a currency, not a rock. Have you ever tried to buy a sandwich with gold? No, well no shit because it's not a currency and is useless as a means of exchange. Comparing Bitcoin to gold is silly.

[PacifyFish]

Gold is primarily used as a store of value. Bitcoin (for me, at least) is primarily used as a store of value.

Gold has an intrinsic value of “beauty” and has a minor use in electronics. Bitcoin lets you make international money transfers easily.

People rarely buy sandwiches with gold. People rarely buy sandwiches with bitcoin (though I hope that changes in the future, because it will increase the value of bitcoin!).

It’s true that you can hold a piece of gold in your hand. But, honestly, how often do you do that? And more to the point - do you think most of the people who own gold do it for its physical properties, or so they can eventually exchange it for fiat currency?

I compare bitcoin to gold because, to me, they serve the same purpose for the same reasons.

[chrisco255]

There's probably quite a few places that would take gold for a sandwich...assuming they knew what you were giving them was real gold. Gold is not as widespread in use as it once was for commerce, but it's still used.

[WtfRuSerious]

Also, the value of gold doesn't go to zero when the electricity stops... if/when that happens the chickens laying eggs in your coop will be worth more than bitcoin.

[PacifyFish]

If “the electricity stops” how do you expect to retrieve your gold?

Or do you keep it in a vault in your house along with two years’ rations in case the world’s electricity stops working?

I don’t mean to be rude, but let’s try to keep the arguments rational. I’m happy to be convinced otherwise about bitcoin’s value. But I need to be convinced.

[21]

Those chickens would also be worth a lot more than gold.

Not the best list, but still: https://www.toptenz.net/10-post-apocalyptic-currencies-more-...

[HashBasher]

I think bitcoin can be compared to gold in the sense that people use them both as vehicles to store value. Obviously they have different manifestations (digital and physical) and different use cases, but both have the unique characteristic of being rare and therefore valuable.