[lx3459683]

You two are talking about completely different things.

There's no 'on call' for the kind of projects that parent is talking about. There's a small handful of guys who get shit done and maybe a second ring development team around them.

For some people, the truly exciting work is the work where none of this stuff has been proceduralized. It's not feasible to train or do knowledge transfer between two shifts for these projects.

[Xylakant]

What if that single person, the hero that bears the world of this project on his sole shoulders stumbles and falls, falls ill, or simply wants to go on holidays and sit in the desert without cell reception? Stop the world?

I know folks that sit on packed bags, ready to fly to Alaska and hike another 50 miles to fix failing cell infrastructure, but even they have a notion of “i’m on duty now and I’m off duty.” And on top, they get paid a shitload of money for being available just in case.

[lx3459683]

At least in a startup environment, the bus factor risk isn't even on the same order of magnitude as much more tangible stuff like the client walking away. Doubling your labor costs to mitigate a risk that doesn't make the top 3 is just bad business. Sometimes it's not even an option.

You make a deal with your #1s that they will get the fun projects, the paid vacations when the current crisis is over, the completely flexible hours and full autonomy. Anything they want within reason, as long as shit gets done.

It's not for everyone, but I can see where GP is coming from.

[Xylakant]

So you’d rather like that the employees foot the bill? Someone needs to pay for that prized 24/7. Note that you can scrounge up an on-call schedule with three people, two if you squeeze it.

Flex hours is a thing that helps, but even there must be an agreement that when you’re off, you’re off. Companies can be stuck in perceived crisis mode for years at a time.

[lx3459683]

Having been one of those #1 employees in the past, I didn't feel short changed. It was an arrangement that was beneficial for both myself and the employer. I don't know how many of us there are. But there are people who will take being on call 24/7 in exchange for full autonomy and not having to justify coming and leaving at random hours or taking leave without notice when the opportunity is there.

I had the employer pay for some of my vacations during downtime, I progressed along my career path much faster than normal employees, I was paid more than normal employees. It was a good gig.

[Xylakant]

There’s a huge leap between “I’m founder or employee #1 and if this flies, it’ll be great.” and the sweeping statement that people that don’t pick up their phone after business hours cannot be entrusted with important projects - which is exactly the statement I took offense with.

And even startups need to get out of “we’ll wing it and cover with our lives for our management failures” mode as early as possible because it’s clearly not sustainable.

[s73v3r_]

"the paid vacations when the current crisis is over"

You don't have to pay for the vacation, if the crisis never ends.

[Nokinside]

>For some people, the truly exciting work is the work where none of this stuff has been proceduralized. It's not feasible to train or do knowledge transfer between two shifts for these projects.

This is true, but this is really question about compensation, not work time. Executives are basically always on call but they get executive pay.

If you are not well compensated for doing the work that can't be replaced, you are being exploited.

[Xylakant]

Executives also usually have someone filter their calls, their phone numbers are rarely available to random clients.