[gumby]

This part struck me as so sad:

> Programming for me was never supposed to be more than a means to an end

Programming is one of my favorite things to do and I do it even when my job is something else. Why do it if you don't like it? No wonder it seemed hopeless.

[indecisive_user]

>Why do it if you don't like it?

Uhh, because it pays well, has good job security and benefits, doesn't require multiple degrees, is respected socially, isn't physically intensive, etc. etc.

Most all of my non-programmer friends don't really like their jobs all that much, so if you're not passionate about anything else, my question is why not go into software development?

[gumby]

Then go write back end code for Allstate. (I don't mean any insult to Allstate nor their staff; simply that it'll be a reliable, well paying 9-5).

The things the author complains about (low pay, long hours, uncertain future) are positive things for me, which is why I chose the path I did. It usually includes working with really interesting people.

I'm glad he abandoned it as it sounds like he would not enjoy it. There's no evidence from his article that, say, the Pinterest fellow or the people who'd come home and open their laptops are actually unhappy, except the author himself and the "mid-30s" person in the bunk above him.

[gehsty]

“Low pay long hours uncertain future are positives for me”

I think you mean you’ll accept them to work somewhere you want to work, if the exact same job came up but with higher pay, a guarantee that you’d only work 35hrs a week and a clear future you’d prefer the low paying hard hrs job?

I work in a none programming job in an unrelated industry and I find start up culture really weird, you have seemingly smart people willing to sacrifice their lives to build something like Pinterest (no disrespect to Pinterest but it is what it is, a social network, not putting men on the moon)... your years 20-30 should be be some of your best years, don’t waste them living in a closet.

[gumby]

The point is the exact same job won't come up with higher pay and shorter hours; the jobs I like and have been doing for 30 hours really do involve passion+ and a huge lever arm. Crazy, sure, but I've been doing it for 30 years.

> I find start up culture really weird, you have seemingly smart people willing to sacrifice their lives to build something like Pinterest (no disrespect to Pinterest but it is what it is, a social network, not putting men on the moon)... your years 20-30 should be be some of your best years, don’t waste them living in a closet.

I also find it weird -- building Pinterest doesn't seem interesting, and these days (last 15 years) most of the startups are just retail shops that happen to be online. Yawn. The companies I've enjoyed starting and working for have been deeply tech oriented and actually have tried to, or managed to, have significant visible, technical effect on the world. But really, working at Apple in the late 70s/early 80s++ would have been fun, crazy, long hours, huge esprit de corps, and yes, shared housing. But don't you think it would have been worth it?

The dot com boom brought all sorts of carpetbaggers who merely wanted the money, and they changed things for the worse. Though most of them ended up in SF (used to be you lived in SF and worked in Silicon Valley, so the morning traffic jam was leaving the city, not entering it). Though we do have plenty of douchebags down here, the great thing is the SF is like a douchebag magnet. It's paved over most of the craziness of SF replacing it with blandness, but at least it acts as a honeypot for the benefit of the rest of us. This poor kid is simply one of the victims.

+ the real kind, not the "let's make a corporate mission" kind. When you actually want to live in the world where your product is ubiquitous and you only work with people who like their jobs. Crazy to work with people who don't like their jobs, and no amount of money would make that kind of life (working with people who don't like what they do) worth living for me.

++ this example is well before my time; I just picked it because everybody would know it

[indecisive_user]

I don't know the author, but it sounds like he's coming from a non traditional background trying to break into the tech industry. The advice I've often seen given to these people is to move to the city and find a reputable boot camp.

Now, this was probably good advice 6 or 8 years ago. But rising rent costs, an overabundance of coding boot camps, and a relatively lower supply of jobs willing to employ boot camp grads has made that advice much more questionable.

I'm glad he abandoned that housing nonsense, but even in SF there are sane tech jobs that only expect 40 hours out of you per week.

[anothergoogler]

Allstate isn't a government jobs program, and they have hiring requirements too.

[gumby]

It's just synecdoche.

[jondubois]

A lot of people these days think like this. It means that software developers tend to be money oriented these days and it often affects code quality in a negative way.

Producing bad code is more lucrative for the developer than producing good code.

[adrianN]

Almost all programmers I know are not passionate about their jobs. It's a job, not their life. Yet they write good code and deliver on schedule. Outside of the HN filter bubble this is perfectly normal. Insinuating that people intentionally write bad code for monetary reasons is rude imho.

It's like this for the vast majority of jobs, inside and outside of tech. People do them because they have to pay their bills and come home to their family and their hobbies.

[BigJono]

I don't think I've met anyone that's passionate about their job. About programming? Sure! But it's really, really difficult to be passionate about a specific job unless it's your own company.

[golergka]

Hi, I'm one of those people. Been in game development 11 years, now a lead developer for a project that I would buy and play as a gamer, doing exactly what I was dreaming of doing when I was around 7 years old. It's very grueling emotionally and takes a great toll, but I have no other big goals in life right now other than to do this right.

[dboon]

Hi! I'm graduating college soon. My favorite hobby is engine development, and I'd love to try out the field -- may I ask how you broke into the industry?

[gumby]

> I don't think I've met anyone that's passionate about their job.

How sad! I know not every job excites passion but really, nobody?

[cimmanom]

You can take pride in doing good work and you can take pride in the outcomes of your work even if you're not passionate about the work for its own sake and even if you wouldn’t be interested in the work without being paid for it.

[VectorLock]

There are people who loved programming and then made it a job, and there are people who got into programming because its widely considered to be a good career. Its easy to tell who has a passion for it and who doesn't. Both types have their strengths and weaknesses.

[hfdgiutdryg]

Its easy to tell who has a passion for it and who doesn't.

I've never met anyone with a passion for programming, but I've met a lot of people who misuse the word passion.

[walshemj]

You must have worked at the wrong sort of company then - they do exist

[hfdgiutdryg]

I think you mean enthusiastic, curious, focused, or interested. Not passionate.

[sockgrant]

Can you explain why you don’t think a SWE can be passionate about coding? I don’t think I understand your point.

[ghaff]

Not the parent but "passionate" can come across as code for things like all-consuming interest that I will do morning, noon, night, and weekends. It's just one of those BS words used in phrases like "We only want team members with a passion for their work" that turns a lot of people off and makes them suspect that what they really want are team members who will put in 80-hour weeks.

[hfdgiutdryg]

Read the definition of passionate. People mean enthusiastic and misuse passionate. I have no idea why, they do it, other than as a completely arbitrary way to discount others whenever they want.

[walshemj]

Well one of the DBA's I worked with at BT made his own sensory deprivation tank and used to meditate on problems.

They where also renowned for saving a huge sum of money for the company when a quarterly CSS run barfed badly - CSS was the BT billing system and the worlds largest IBM system at the time.

[hfdgiutdryg]

That's not passion. That's a reasonable, experimental approach to problem solving.