[aftbit]

I'm a pretty non-musical person, and time signatures have always confused me. Unfortunately, this explanation left me just as confused. I can hear the difference between the two sample beats but I cannot figure out how to generalize this to other time signatures beyond the 3/4 and 6/8 described here.

[skywhopper]

The full time signature is arbitrary, and partially related to how the notes are written. It's wrong to put too much weight on "6/8" vs "3/4" per se. There are conventions that have developed in western music as to which time signature matches which natural beat pattern, but there's nothing _inherent_ in the time signatures that's important.

Instead, I find it useful to think about combinations and layers of twos and threes. So the different being talked about in this article is about whether the beat pattern is more of three groups of two, or two groups of three. Convention has mapped those, typically, to 3/4 and 6/8 respectively, but again that's entirely arbitrary.

Likewise 9/8 time is usually three groups of three. 4/4 is two groups of two (though the second two often have slightly less emphasis, whereas 2/4 time is just single groupings of two). 7/8 is a group of three and two groups of two (could be 2-2-3, or 3-2-2, or 2-3-2). 5/4 or 5/8 is a group of two and a group of three.

But ultimately time signatures are just a convenient way to hint at the beat pattern expected, and to give a framework in which to write the musical notation. The actual _music_ is not so easily transcribed.

[jballanc]

One of my favorite songs for helping to explain the importance and differences between time signatures is "Question!" by System of a Down (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENBv2i88g6Y). The intro is 9/8 (as a 3-2-2-2 grouping), followed by a section in 5/4. The verses are the same 9/8, except for regular jumps to 6/8 (during the phrase "Are you dreaming?"). The chorus is 6/4, with repeats of the same 5/4 section from the intro. The bridge is a mash-up of the 5/4 again with jumps between 9/8 and 3/4 and the outro is 4/4 back to a final 9/8 section.

It's not always easy to pick out what specific signature is being played at every point in the song, but the "suspended" feeling of hanging beats as the signature changes is very obvious.

[soperj]

Can you explain what the difference between /4 and /8 are? like for example, what is the difference between 9/8 and 9/4? I've made something up that has an 11 time signature, 2-3-3-3(or 3-3-2-3), but how do I know if it's 11/8 or 11/4?

[x3n0ph3n3]

It only indicates which note symbol is the beat unit. /4 means that each quarter note gets the beat, while /8 means that each eighth note gets the beat. 3/4 means there are 3 quarter notes of time, while 6/8 means there are 6 eighth notes of time. This might help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Note_value

[bonzini]

You don't. However, in general faster tempo has a lower denominator (in classical music at least, and more rarely in jazz).

For example, a 2/2 tempo with 100 BPM is easier to "manage" than a 4/4 tempo with 200 BPM, and they are the same as each 2/2 beat corresponds to two 4/4 beats. So a "Presto" or "Prestissimo" will often be written as 2/2, with half the BPM that it would have in 4/4. Likewise, a 6/4 is usually faster than a 6/8 or 12/8.

[gp7]

Time signatures are about writing and reading music. A beat being in 3 or 6 is independent from the time signature, which is whatever the transcriber thought best (you can always count a song in 6 in 3.) A piece in 4 might have pervasive use of triplets, so it would make it more readable to notate in 12/8 rather than 4/4, but there is no triplet-pervasiveness threshold for when to prefer one over the other. Likewise, it would be foolish to have the stress in a waltz occur on the 1st and 4th, then 3rd, then 2nd beat of the bar (this happens if you notate one in 4), but any enterprising composer would be able to thwart any rules you cared to come up with to codify that without much effort.

So: the time signature just describes how many times to count within a bar/measure, and what subdivision (that corresponds to a certain notation) you are counting. For communicating to another musician the rhythm of a song you'd just drop the subdivision part, because it's only relevant to notation.

[lmm]

> you can always count a song in 6 in 3.

You would lose something by doing so; when a song is written in 6 it's because (unless someone is playing silly buggers) it has some kind of 1-2 pattern. For a lot of songs in 6, if you want to count something smaller you're better off counting it in 2s (with some level of triplet-pervasiveness).

[tmh88j]

As someone who casually plays the guitar and piano and understands the basics of time signatures, your explanation left me more confused and almost forgot what I already know. You seem like a very knowledgeable person, but don't seem to realize that what is common knowledge to you is meaningless technical jargon to everyone else.

[gp7]

That’s fair, but my assumption was that someone reading my reply would also have read the others, and I didn’t want to repeat what has already been said.

[TheOtherHobbes]

It's not a math thing. It's more about feel than counting.

3/4 is ONE two three, with a foot stomp on the ONE. It's a dance beat - STOMP skip skip.

4/4 is so common it appears in a lot of variations, from the bass drum beat of EDM to all the different rock and pop variations. The usual - not infallible, but strongly suggestive - tell is how often the chords change. Failing which, there's often a unique rhythm marker at the starter of each bar.

6/8 is skiddledeediddledee - often used in folk and/or ethnic music. It's a much lighter, more skittery feel.

You can generalise the /8 time sigs to 9/8 and 12/8, although they're more rare. They're often used to signify something exotic, alien, ethnic, or maybe a bit spiritual.

Like this, which you've probably heard, and is in 12/8 when it eventually gets going. The clue is in the phrase length:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLnL63cXmD8

Exotic sigs like 5/4 and 7/4 are much less standardised, so they're open to interpretation. You can play 5/4 as 2+3 or 3+2 or 4+1. Or just as 5.

Likewise 7/4 (listen to the snare):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0kcet4aPpQ

[jefftk]

> 6/8 is skiddledeediddledee - often used in folk and/or ethnic music. It's a much lighter, more skittery feel.

There are two common forms of 6/8 (jigs) at least in the kinds of traditional music I'm used to: single jigs and double jigs. A double jig is "skiddledeediddledee" as you said, like the song "99 bottles of beer on the wall", while a single jig is more like "humpty dumpty".

[chrisseaton]

> with a foot stomp on the ONE

How can you talk about feet stomping when that's not part of the music? Two people could chose to stomp their feet on different beats or on more or fewer beats.

[wildrhythms]

The term "foot stomp" is just referring to what's actually called a downbeat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(music)#Downbeat_and_upbe...

[moomin]

It's a bit strange, but here's the rule: if you can divide the time signature by 3/2 (and not get 1 anywhere), it's the same as the result, but in triplets.

So 6/8 is a variant of 2/4, with 2 main beats in the bar. 3/4 has 3 beats to a bar.

Or in quavers, 6/8 is Da du du Da du du, whilst 3/4 is Da du Da du Da du.

[cube2222]

You may be confused. I've spent 9 years in a music school, and whenever there was an exercise to tell the measure by listening to the music I've always been confused how others manage to discern 3/4 from 6/8. Or 2/2 vs 4/4 for that matter. However, I've got the hang of it in the latter years. Point being, this is something that just requires some bigger time commitment to learn.

Basically you try to hear what groups of notes are "played as one". You also hear how the accents are distributed among the notes. It's easier to get the hang of it if you have to actually adhere to it when playing an instrument.

[acjohnson55]

Beyond the basic principle of noting "beats per measure" and "note size of a beat", it's really just convention when it comes to the meter (the accent pattern). You learn the common mapping, but there are definitely exceptions.

[glitcher]

May or may not be helpful, but the way I learned it:

numerator = beats per measure

denominator = which note "gets the beat"

3/4 time has 3 beats per measure, where quarter (1/4) notes get the beat.

6/8 time has 6 beats per measure, where eighth notes get the beat.

etc...

[abruzzi]

Not quite. It is correct to say that the numerator is the count and the denominator is what is counted. So 3/4 is 3 quarter notes, and 6/8 is 6 eighth notes. However which notes get the beat is a bit more fuzzy. 6/8 is usually but not always two beats per measure, with three eighths per beat (counted 1-tee-ta 2-tee-ta)

That gets to the concept of simple and compound meter. In simple meter the the beat gets divided in two and in compound the beat gets divided in three. (Complex is a mix, like 7/8 may be divided 1-and 2-and 3-tee-ta).

Ultimately, the beat can be more interpretive. The 2nd movement of Beethoven’s 9th symphony is in (mostly) 3/4 but it is so fast, no conductor beats it in three, they beat in in one.

[delinka]

"... two beats per measure, with three eighths per beat (counted 1-tee-ta 2-tee-ta)"

I've never heard this. I've only ever heard it as "1 2 3 4 5 6"

[yesenadam]

or 1 and a 2 and a..

[lenzm]

Additionally, when you are listening to music the denominator has no meaning. You can hear how many beats to the bar (the numerator) but the way that it is notated (quarter note gets the beat or eighth note) is just a matter of how it is written.

[theoh]

The denominator is not as important as the numerator. (The Wikipedia page on time signatures makes that clear)

One thing about 6/8 that is not literally communicated by the notation is the rhythm: the first and fourth beats of the bar are stressed. But not equally, because that would be indistinguishable from 3/8.

[pishpash]

The denominator is not important at all, though there seems to be a convention of keeping the rhythm fraction around 1, so 6/8 instead of 6/4, but say, 5/4 instead of 5/8.

And 6/8 says nothing about the beat structure within the 6 beats. You're stating the most common occurrence, but that's not the definition of 6/8.

[theoh]

You're not the only one in the comments on this article who has asserted that some pieces in 6/8 have a different pattern of stresses. So I'm totally prepared to hear about it, even if basic music theory doesn't cover those cases.

The point stands that time signatures are not rational numbers (as you acknowledge, the unit of the denumerator can be scaled) so 3/4 and 6/8 aren't part of some equivalence class. They have different meanings which are only sustained by the presence of a cyclical pattern of stressed notes. So if there's some music theory you can link to which elaborates on all the possible different rhythmic patterns of 6/8 vs 3/4, that would provide examples of the distinction we both agree exists.

[jdietrich]

If you really want to confuse yourself, try figuring out the time signature for Kiss By A Rose by Seal.

https://open.spotify.com/track/3YKptz29AsOlm7WAVnztBh

[sparky_z]

I'm would call that 6/8, no question. It's slow enough that the accompaniment often subdivides into 16ths, giving the immediate impression of each measure divided into two 3/4 bars. But listen to underlying drum beat, and it clearly repeats every 6 beats, so I'm comfortable calling it 6/8.

I might almost call it 6/4, which wouldn't exactly be wrong (as long as you double all your note values when notating). But that's conventionally reserved for unusual beat groupings like 4/4 + 2/4.

[greglindahl]

Waltzes are usually notated in 3/4, and the measures usually come in pairs, which fits nicely with a rotary waltz doing a complete turn in 2 measures.

6/4 is extremely common when notating Renaissance music, btw. Although the originals are often in 6/2. Or lack bar lines, so they're X/2.

[greglindahl]

It's a waltz. Normally waltzes are notated in 3/4.

[sparky_z]

Why do you say it's a waltz? The intended audience is clearly not ballroom dancers.

You might argue that anything in "waltz time" is a waltz, but then your argument becomes circular. You would be saying it's a waltz because it's in 3/4 time and it's in 3/4 time because it's a waltz.

[roywiggins]

For what it's worth, it's quite easy to dance a waltz to the song. It's got enough of an oom pa pa that a waltz is very natural.

Possibly it makes more sense to musicians to notate it as 6/8 because the triples come in pairs. It's still a waltz though, and dancers' instinct will be to break it into triples. It's not hard to scramble a 6/8 signature to make it not a waltz (don't put downbeats every three, and it isn't a waltz) but that song definitely doesn't do that.

[greglindahl]

I have no idea what the intent of the artist is, but it's worth noting that the overwhelming majority of rock music is in ballad meter, not 3. So this is extremely unusual music for the audience this artist usually plays for.

For this piece, I think it's a waltz because it's in 3/4, at a typical waltz tempo, and it "feels like" a waltz, which is to say that the emphasis on the beats and their precise timing feels like waltz music usually does.

So no, I would not argue that anything in "waltz time" is a waltz.

[sparky_z]

Well, my whole argument was that while it superficially "feels like" a waltz in some ways, it's clearly in 6/8 because of how the underlying beat is grouped. That's what matters.

Just as a sanity check, I decided to look up some sheet music and see how others have interpreted the song. Every single one that I can find notates it in 6/8 (interestingly with some individual measures in 9/8).

http://www.musiclassroom.com/partitions/Seal_kiss_from_a_ros...

https://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0159794

https://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0078268

https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/kiss-from-a-rose-satb-a...

https://www.onlinepianist.com/sheet-music/seal/kiss-from-a-r...

https://www.sheetmusicdirect.us/sheetmusic/song/1000176568/k...

[greglindahl]

The overwhelming majority of waltzes are notated in 3/4 with the measures in pairs, because it takes 2 measures (6 dance steps) to do one rotation of a rotary waltz. The two downbeats are equal. The music video on YouTube of Seal performing this song has equal downbeats.

If you write it in 6/8 instead, many musicians will emphasize 4 less than 1.

I think that dancers knowing music and musicians knowing dance is extremely useful. It changes your opinions about notation.