[deno]

Sit up straight (fix your posture) and stop gluing your wrists to the desk or wrist “support” and the layout doesn’t matter unless you’re going for typing records.

There is no magical layout that can eliminate the tension you’re artificially creating by stretching your fingers into unnatural positions instead of just moving the entire hand.

What healthy typing looks like (on a horrible keyboard no less): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs2B5XRtr6k

Imagine you tried playing a piano the way you type on your keyboard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InqmH-o1cX0

The pain is letting you know you’re doing something wrong.

[brandonmenc]

Agree with you in general - that adjusting your body, and not your keyboard, is the fix - but not necessarily the specifics.

The most important fixes imo are:

- Neutral angle wrists (elbows flared so that it's a straight line from the elbow to the fingertips, i.e. no wrist "yaw")

- Monitor at eye-level

- Forearms parallel to the ground

- Feet planted on the floor

afaik slouching takes pressure of the lumbar vertebrae, but neither that nor sitting up straight is uncomfortable for me, and I arbitrarily alternate between the two. Also, arms resting on the desk doesn't bother me.

I find it nearly impossible to work on a laptop for any length of time, mostly because of the monitor-at-eye-level requirement. Speaking of, an adjustable monitor arm is the best investment you can make. I use the Humanscale M2.

[deno]

I take no issue with anything on that list. The pressure on lumbar is because of the positioning of your pelvis[1].

> Speaking of, an adjustable monitor arm is the best investment you can make. I use the Humanscale M2.

I have my monitor on top of an entire hifi set and an old VHS player. But yeah an arm seems more sensible ;)

[1] https://i.imgur.com/mp9uqLb.jpg

[brandonmenc]

Agree - that image looks painful, but I'd term that a "hunch" more than a "slouch" (not sure if ergonomics makes a distinction between the two.)

My "slouch" is more of a reclining position, which I find quite comfortable.

[deno]

> My "slouch" is more of a reclining position, which I find quite comfortable.

Reclining is fine for relaxing but it’s not an ideal position for typing/work. For one thing you’re encouraging rounded shoulders, e.g. see: https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/exercise/common-posture-mistake...

[brandonmenc]

> you’re encouraging rounded shoulders

I lift weights regularly, which I'm guessing compensates. I agree that it would cause problems sans weightlifting.

[screye]

Wait ! So an anterior pelvic tilt when sitting is actually good for you ?

That seems counter inuitive since it is bad for you to stand in that way .

[deno]

The scan is from a book called “8 Steps to a Pain-Free Back” by Esther Gokhale which I recommend reading and makes the case for a J shaped spine (rather than S shape).

[tjoff]

It is natural to statically lift your arms like that for hours upon hours?

Where one places the support is important, but I've seen conflicting statements whether lifting your arms would be beneficial.

I have not yet seen the piano video but a piano is much bigger than a keyboard and I see tons of reasons as to why whatever works for one doesn't necessarily have to work for the other.

[vemv]

Nature doesn't require us to lean on armrests, desks or such - in fact there are almost no flat (or cushioned) surfaces on nature.

Evolutionarily it would't make sense if the human body wasn't 'self-contained' - requiring no external tools to work comfortably.

Your normal posture is to have the arms relaxed, or with a moderate amount of tension by keeping them lifted a reasonable amount of time, and variating the posture as well.

A well-developed hunter/gatherer would definitely have arms strong enough to type this way without getting particularly tired.

So what we modern humans ought to do is to keep the arms strong (by exercising), and to not compensate tiredness with artificial mechanisms.

I'm aware that this argumentation is somewhat dubious (and probably I failed to express it properly), but as a simpler experience report, I've worked this way 4+ years without trouble. First days will suck though.

[tjoff]

I would need more convincing than that. Nature doesn't have keyboards.

Static postures are seen as something very bad in ergonomics, muscles are not adapted for that and wear is problematic.

I've used supports for 20+ years without trouble. First day didn't suck either.

[vemv]

Lifting your arms doesn't mean keeping them in a static position. They are lifted when you're typing; else they lean on your legs (much better than using some kind of cushion/surface, since your legs don't compress your wrists). Also, one can vary the arms' angle/etc during the day.

The bad part about wrist/arm rests is - very likely they compress various layers of your body, and they force you to contort your wrists to type (because you want to reach the keyboard while some other part of your body is stuck 'resting').

[tjoff]

Maybe I overestimate how much I use the keyboard but I still see hours on straight where I would not want to move my hands away from the keyboard. You don't need to reach for the keyboard due to supports, you are resting on the home row.

Yes, movement is important and one should take breaks but that is something one should do regardless of posture. I see how lifting hands can improve that but it has to be balanced against the negatives.

If moving a hand to use the mouse is seen as a big pain point I have a hard time to see how one would rest unused hands on the legs? Underneath the table?

[deno]

When you bend your arms at 90° where are your palms? With proper posture/keyboard height they should be over the keyboard. If you’re sitting straight it’s natural to bring your keyboard to the edge of the desk. But if you prefer to be under the desk then just rest on the desk.

I made a really quick sketch some time ago maybe it helps: http://svgur.com/s/7e6

That wrist angle on the green dude is very exaggerated, the point was to show that the fingers are in their natural positions, rather than curled, which is what happens when your wrists are glued.

EDIT: Also just look where the piano lady is resting her hands.

[hfdgiutdryg]

Having recovered from terrible wrist tendinitis, I advocate resting using a quality chair with adjustable, padded armrests and resting your forearm (just in front of the elbow works for me) on them. Having them slide in and out so your elbow is tucked in near your body is critical for comfort, in my experience.

My favorite chair so far is still the Steelcase Criterion.

Trying to support your arms while typing would create tremendous tension in your shoulders. I was always confused by the classic typist advice to have no arm rests.

[deno]

If you’re in a position to use armrests then you’re not sitting up straight. Likely leaning out on back “support” and your neck tensed up or on head “support” unless you have your monitor actually over above you.

Needless to say, trying to keep your wrists up in that position would be uncomfortable.

The best keyboard placement in this position is on your legs/thighs. Thin chiclet keyboard only laying flat. It’s not a replacement for fixing your posture, of course.

[hfdgiutdryg]

If you’re in a position to use armrests then you’re not sitting up straight

What an ignorant statement. It very obviously depends on the chair and body in question.

[deno]

So are you sitting up straight or leaning back?

[hfdgiutdryg]

Sitting up straight. You need to go chair shopping.

[deno]

> It is natural to statically lift your arms like that for hours upon hours?

No, just rest your palms on desk or legs when not typing. The point is to just not glue them when you are actually typing.

[SkyPuncher]

I strongly, strongly disagree that the layout doesn't matter.

I was experiencing pretty bad pain from typing on a qwerty layout. Qwerty has high percentage of combinations that require jumping rows or contorting your hand.

I switched to Colemak (which follows a similar philosophy as Workman) and my hands have significantly too less pain. I still get some from being a heavy typer, but I no longer experience the worst of the paint.

I know you can't prove anything with one word, but the word nice is a great example.

On qwerty, "n-i" forces an uncomfortable twist with the pointer and middle finger. "c-e" forces a jump of the home row.

On colemak, "n", "i", and "e" are all on the home row with the same hand. "c" is on the opposite hand in the lower row. There's no uncomfortable twisting.

You find these types of improvements across nearly all of the intentional layout designs like drovak, colemak, and workman. Regardless of "proper" posture, they do minimize a lot of difficult typing procedures.

Look at the stats on this comment alone: http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/load/1mwrX5bH

[deno]

> Qwerty has high percentage of combinations that require jumping rows or contorting your hand.

And my point is it doesn’t matter when your wrist is not glued to your desk. You don’t need to contort anything if your hand is free and relaxed over the keys. If something is far away, I just move my entire hand over there.

Look, here’s me typing “nice” using two different methods:

https://streamable.com/mlys1

(I’m just typing “hello world” at the end)

> I still get some [pain] from being a heavy typer, but I no longer experience the worst of the pain.

In the second example you can see my hands are completely relaxed, I’m not “contorting” anything, I could type like that for hours. Zero pain. None. Nada. Nil.

Colemak, Dvorak, etc, they’re all optimizing how to do least damage with the horrible typing method that no one ought to use in the first place.

[SkyPuncher]

That's a bad example because you don't follow standard keying methods. In you're nice example, you're using your pointer finger to press the "c" key. Standard recommendations say both "c" and "e" keys should be handled by your middle finger on qwerty.

You're also typing incredibly slow where you can physically move your hand to avoid contorting your finger. At faster speeds, which I personally hit frequently when slacking or typing up emails, I can't be moving my hands all over the keyboard.

[deno]

> In you're nice example, you're using your pointer finger to press the "c" key. Standard recommendations say both "c" and "e" keys should be handled by your middle finger on qwerty.

Do you mean in the wrists down example? I used natural fingers and it was still horribly unpleasant.

> You're also typing incredibly slow where you can physically move your hand to avoid contorting your finger. At faster speeds, which I personally hit frequently when slacking or typing up emails, I can't be moving my hands all over the keyboard.

How do you figure that? I can easily hit 100 wpm and that’s way above my thinking speed already.

I take typing seriously. We can race and I’m going to win. Guarantee it. In addition, I can sustain that speed for an hour. Can you?

What do you think moving my hand entails anyway. It’s not going to the other room to pet the cat, it’s literally 0.5–1.0 cm that I don’t even think about… It’s what the brain figures out makes more sense than “contorting” fingers when you have the ability to do so, i.e. if your wrists are not artificially glued down to your desk.

[deno]

Or another way to think about it is it’s the home row moving around. Each hand has a dynamic <x,y> offset, units being keys.

It’s like JIT compilation for your typing… Instead of having AOT plan how to hit each key, with what finger, etc., the brain just figures out which finger is best positioned to hit the key at any given time, which varies depending on context.

[wruza]

I can imagine typing a wordy contract with this body and hand position, but not programming. He doesn’t use ctrl/shift much, and when he does, it seems not like a quick thing. He also will bottom out as hell even on non-horrible keyboard. (Mac kbd is far from horrible when compared to other membranes, btw.)

I’m not a homerow-guy even, but try to {foo:(x,y)=>(x[y]+1)} and I bet this method will feel the struggle.

[deno]

I don't understand the problem...?

Here's a quick demo of me typing some special characters with my natural typing position: https://streamable.com/tavn6

For something like $ or # I’ll use my right pinky for shift and the left hand, which I can’t really demo with one hand holding camera. The right side is easily reachable if you don’t glue your wrist—try it.

EDIT: Here’a the full thing with spaces: https://streamable.com/h0bpr

[wruza]

Just tried your way and have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, it isn’t much different from how I do (bases on erf, kop/jio and sliding around). On the other, side moving is much easier due to no friction; also much ‘slippery’ if not controlled. Probably should give it a week to see how is it to hold a big right angle for a long time. Thanks for sharing!

[deno]

You need a slightly different mental map of your keyboard. I think I use the edges/shifts as a reference (Model F doesn’t have the bumps at J/F at all), but that’s just a guess.

[brennebeck]

Huh. I had no idea I typed pretty healthily. Thank you.

But... references? (It does make sense, though)

[Mikhail_Edoshin]

There's quite a body of knowledge on body mechanics that doesn't seem to get much reflection in scientific publications. The only possible exception is the Alexander technique, and even this one is very much obscure. Not because it's secret or something like that, it's that these things don't seem to be searched for.

BTW, healthy writing (according to Palmer) is very similar: you rest your elbow and little finger on the desk and write by floating your whole hand above in a very relaxed way.

[vemv]

I wouln't rest my elbow (or forearms) on anything, it's an unnatural pressure.

Instead I place the keyboard at the border of the desk, so I can't possibly lean my arms on the desk.

Granted, you have to use more force to keep your whole arms lifted for hours, but it's good that you can know when do you need a rest.

[deno]

Practically all ergonomic studies start from the position of compromised wrist placement and measure what angle does least damage. That’s how you end up with split “ergonomic” keyboards.

This is the height you need for your monitor to not encourage slouching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S467Ck8uIsc . You also need to touch type which not everyone can. As a result most office workers have terrible postures.

I bet you would run into trouble just trying to find enough people that can both touch type and have good enough posture to do such study. But I would start with piano players.

[melling]

I’ve got dozens of stories about people with RSI here:

https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes/blob/master/README...

There doesn’t seem to be one cause or one solution.

[deno]

You can put everything in that list into 3 categories:

1. Fixing the problem: posture & monitor/keyboard height

2. Masking the problem: anything with the word ergonomic

3. Avoiding the problem: typing less/taking frequent (flow-interrupting) breaks

Of course most people with pain want quick solutions, so no. 2 is going to be over-represented. Fixing your posture actually takes work to stretch/compress different muscle groups over a period of time, otherwise you’re back to slouching after 10 minutes.

[melling]

There are some plenty of programmers who have dealt with problems for years:

http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_hand_pain_celebrity.html

I wouldn’t trivialize anything.

Happens to designers too.

This was on the front of HN a few years ago:

http://www.looknohands.me

[deno]

Acknowledging the fact that most people working with computers have horrible postures is not trivializing anything.

[hfdgiutdryg]

Fixing poor ergonomics isn't making a problem.

[eru]

No, thanks. I'd rather use my Kinesis Advantage than a horrible layout on a horrible flat keyboard.

[deno]

I’m typing this comment on an IBM Model F XT. The video is to show proper typing posture not an endorsement of chiclet style keyboards.

But you could even type on this crap and be comfortable, because posture fixes the problem instead of masking it, like that Kinesis.

[eru]

Oh, posture is good. But I'd rather have good posture on a keyboard with keys lined in direct columns etc.

(Truth be told, my Kinesis Advantage sits on my standing desk at work where I spend most of my screen time and typing. I'm tying on my MacBook's chiclet.)

[deno]

The issue is the tension you create by gluing your wrists and then having to curl your fingers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nfwL_99pjA

On Kinesis you minimize this issue but your hands are still mostly static and never relax.