[nealdt]

All the more reason to select organic produce and where possible start growing your own veggies or link up with local co-operatives. It's something we've done and having a close relationship with local growers and knowing about your food is fantastic and something kids love. The [roduce tends to have more nutrients as well (yet more positives). Can it be done large scale? I remember hearing in a talk about permaculture that a hectare of land can support a hundred people throughout a year.

[darpa_escapee]

While you won't have to worry about glysophate on organic food, just as much, if not more, pesticides are used on organic crops.

[strainer]

Considering reduction of pesticide use and exposure is one of the main objectives of the organic movement, which has been developing for over 60 years now - it would be a hopeless situation if it resulted in "just as much, if not more, pesticides".

Do you have any substantial sources for such a tragic claim?

For example here[1] is an EU funded meta-review from 2014 which finds: " the frequency of occurrence of pesticide residues was found to be four times higher in conventional crops, which also contained significantly higher concentrations of the toxic metal Cd. "

I personally have some faith that professional scrutiny involved in developing organic standards, selects the permissible pesticides with some insight and success. Not without possibility of some errors - to which the national and international trading standards are also susceptible, however the organic standards are a refined subset of those protections.

[1] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-n...

[gruez]

>Considering reduction of pesticide use and exposure is one of the main objectives of the organic movement

why does that matter when the still spray as much pesticides you want and still call it "organic"? call it the "pesticide free movement" or something, but don't conflate it with "organic", which is essentially a meaningless marketing term at this point, at least when it comes to food safety.

[beenBoutIT]

Not to mention fungicides and herbicides, which are also permitted with "organic" farming. https://tilth.org/app/uploads/2014/12/can-i-use-this-pestici...

"Hydrogen peroxide and potassium bicarbonate, two familiar substances that are relatively new as fungicides, are also permitted."

"Various natural substances have been tried as herbicides with mixed success. Clove oil is a botanical that is effective."

[strainer]

Right, those are ubiquitous chemicals and compounds with a relatively low uncertainty to their ecological and biological impacts. Unlike for example - synthetically augmented glyphosate compounds, and other contentious products which organic standards takes a precautionary stance towards.

[strainer]

"they still spray as much pesticides you want"

Organic labelled produce cant, it is subject to greater restrictions of pesticide use than general international farming regulations. Honestly, if you dont acknowledge this very basic reality of organic certification then your arguments against it are besides reason.

Organic certification is not a "meaningless marketing term" like for example "family farm" can be. It means the farm has been advised and reviewed to follow restrictions on pesticide, fertilizer use and other practices which are applied in addition to regional and national farming regulations.

[dragonwriter]

> Organic labelled produce cant, it is subject to greater restrictions of pesticide use than general international farming regulations

Kinds, yes, which often results in greater and more environmentally harmful quantities. And the kinds are not based on any scientific evaluation of safety or health, but on what amounts to religious preference.

Organic certification is like kosher or halal certification.

[strainer]

> which often results in greater and more environmentally harmful quantities.

Do you have any substantial references of such results happening "often" or is that idea just gathered from anecdotes and casual articles ?

[gruez]

>Organic labelled produce cant, it is subject to greater restrictions of pesticide use than general international farming regulations.

is that a feature of some organic certification programs, or just some?

[strainer]

There is generally only one organic certification program per country, in the US it is administered by the United States Department of Agriculture [0] - which also administrates most standard regulations. Of course, no organically certified products are exempt from any standard regulations - the organic regulations exist in addition to general standards.

[0]https://www.ams.usda.gov/services/organic-certification/beco...

[beenBoutIT]

Glyphosate is a an herbicide, not a pesticide.

[dragonwriter]

Herbicides are a subset of pesticides by the technical definition, though “pesticide” is often used to mean something closer to (but sightly broader than) “insecticide” in popular use.

[beenBoutIT]

I keep forgetting this fact. In light of this, the idea that commercial produce could ever be "pesticide-free" is unlikely. Avoiding the use of pesticides altogether is going to be extremely expensive and/or extremely inefficient .