[ChuckMcM]

This is pretty huge. For as long as I can remember the response to command line applications talking to command line applications was "Why would you want to do that? Use (RPC | shared memory | some other IPC mechanism)." And nobody at Microsoft seemed to understand how much simpler it was to use ptys. They seem to have completely capitulated to the notion ptys and are dropping them into the next release of W10. I wish this had happened 10 years ago but hey, I'll take it.

[cryptonector]

It's the reality of the market, which is why Windows is adding Linux compatibility (as is every *BSD, Illumos, ...).

But also it's the fact that three decades of not even life support has left the Windows console in pretty sad shape -- the folks tasked with getting it into better shape were bound to see the value of ptys.

Lastly, don't forget that Windows NT was meant to be a console OS, like VMS. There must still be people, even if very few, at MSFT who appreciate text-oriented apps.

For me, the tty/pty, shells, screen/tmux/..., ssh, and so on, are the things that make Unix so powerful. The fact is that Win32 is far superior in a number of areas (SIDs >> UIDs/GIDs, security descriptors >> {owner, group, mode, [ACL]}, access tokens >> struct cred), but far inferior in the things that really matter to a power user trying to get things done.

[SideburnsOfDoom]

> Lastly, don't forget that Windows NT was meant to be a console OS, like VMS. There must still be people, even if very few, at MSFT who appreciate text-oriented apps.

I expect that, like Linux compatibility, most of it is not about "apps" but about being better at running in the cloud, where a (virtual) machine or container needs to be as light as possible, and to be configured and a service launched in it as unattended/automated manner as possible. Stripping out the GUI and making command lines work better works towards these goals.

[cryptonector]

That's a really good point.

[pjmlp]

As power user that gets things done on Windows, it never bothered me that it hasn't an UNIX like console.

If fact it bothered me more that I couldn't get a Borland like devenv on Linux and had to keep myself happy with XEmacs.

[acqq]

I understand this as a "compatibility with * nix" existing software, not as an "amazing feature." Can anybody suggest why I should like it, except for the compatibility with the software written for * nix terminals? Even ssh being too interconnected with a terminal down to the many details was a shock for me... I expected the simple encryption mechanism, over which whatever communicates, even if that would implement the "sh" part of it only on top of that, but no, it's everything spaghettisized and recombined with everything unnecessary like emulating the devices that don't exist for many decades -- in something that should have a clear separation between the task of transporting encrypted data with authenticating from anything else. I can't see it as being positive, security-wise.

Isn't it strange that today everybody has very powerful GPUs and CPUs and the graphical displays with immense RAM and then using all that to emulate the terminals last existing decades ago appears to be so important, even for something that should be just a secure communication protocol?

Why do we still spend so much energy to decide which console of many decades ago we "support" when it seems that all are flawed, at least compared to what the modern OSes can provide, as soon as the "compatibility" is not needed?

Isn't all that "hardware console" compatibility stuff just a historical accident from the "bad old days" of 300 baud lines between the mainframe and the "terminal" which had a few bytes of RAM total? In the days when e.g. the Thunderbolt 3 can carry 5 GB/s, and the rest of the hardware matches? Why do people still so cling to it? I'd really like to know what I am missing.

[pjc50]

> I expected the simple encryption mechanism, over which whatever communicates

In the UNIX world, that's what it gives you - a stream of bytes. Hence things like rsync-over-ssh or git-over-ssh. It also has a port forwarding mode which has special support for X11, which gives you remote windowing over a stream of bytes too.

The main, huge, benefit is that the abstraction is pretty simple, it's discoverable, and you can use the same interface as a human. You can also plug any stream-of-bytes into any other stream-of-bytes, whereas API or RPC based systems have to be designed to interoperate.

[acqq]

As I’ve tried to implement my minimal ssh client (just to connect, execute some command and get the result) I’ve had exactly opposite impression of the “just a stream of bytes” that you mention -- exactly the lack the abstraction. Can you point to any source that does ssh without having to care about a lot of weird terminal and console ancient stuff? I’d be really glad to see it! To me it looked as “everything and the kitchen sink” (that is, exactly the kind of things mentioned in the OP or the comments, like terminal signals and whatnot) has to be there.

SSL is straightforward compared that, at least, once the keys are set. But ssh... as seen in the OP even the console or the terminal or however that part it called has to be very special, and they are obviously proud they implemented that too. In 2018. Probably decades after the last single hardware terminal was sold.

[pasabagi]

I see your point - but don't you find it kinda charming? It's a bit like drinking tea in a china cup, or eating a scone with clotted cream.

I think there is probably a lot of room for improvement in the terminal world, and I agree that a lot of the really old stuff makes things a bit counter-intuitive, but for whatever reason, it seems that people who make really good software also tend to be the people who are pretty fanatical about backwards compatibility. Consider vim, for instance.

In the end, I think the basic model of interoperable, small programs that manipulate streams of text is really good - so people will put up with any number of weird rituals to live in that model. It's also very humble, and very unexciting, so it's the kind of thing that's hard to get people hyped about. So it probably filters by the people that like old things.

[ThJ]

You are conflating what SSH does with what the terminal you're running it in does. SSH barely knows what terminal emulation is. You can literally pipe binary data into it at one end and receive that data into a program at the other end. That's what programs like scp and rsync do. They launch ssh and use it as a data channel.

[acqq]

> You can literally pipe binary data into it at one end and receive that data into a program at the other end

That is the user perspective, not what has to be in a ssh program to work.

[zvrba]

> Why would you want to do that? Use (RPC | shared memory | some other IPC mechanism).

Yes, structured data exchange is the correct answer. When I have the opportunity to code something from scratch, this is the route I take.

[pjc50]

> When I have the opportunity to code something from scratch

But how often does that happen, outside of toy systems and support utilities?

[zvrba]

It happens once in a while. Or you're lucky and stumble upon a team where people made the right choices in the beginning.

[dboreham]

26 years ago.

[deepaksurti]

Which is : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_3.1x

[JdeBP]

That is from a different family of operating systems to what is headlined here, and does not have the client-server system of the operating system family discussed.

* https://superuser.com/a/319187/38062

[dboreham]

No, NT is 26 years old (older if you were developing it).

Source : I have the t-shirt (polo shirt actually).