[chess19]

Of course this quote also suggests that maybe people who go in to PhD programs have higher rates of mental health issues. I would definitely argue that PhD programs are both bad for mental health and also attract people with poor mental health in the first place.

I have known plenty of people who didn't feel like they had the skills (both technical and/or social) to go in to industry so they applied to grad school.

[pytyper2]

Hoping that the degree will mask a lack of actual skills. I encounter this often, 'guy has phd but struggles with the decisions to make actual progress in practical terms'. Is it possible to attain a phd and rely mostly on rote memorization? Are all phd candidates required to make an original contribution to their respective field?

[pmyteh]

It is not possible to rely solely on rote memorization, and to get a PhD is supposed to require making a substantive original contribution to a field.

Having said that, the skills required to get a PhD are pretty specialised - it's absolutely not a given that people with PhDs are highly-functioning human beings, or even necessarily capable of holding down a conventional job. They will at a minimum have demonstrated the ability to self-organise, a high level of bloody-mindedness, and some very deep knowledge in a probably very obscure field. But unless you move straight into solo academic research in the same field, that's not the same thing as being trained in any strong sense.

[roel_v]

"Is it possible to attain a phd and rely mostly on rote memorization?"

No, but it's possible to just be a research serf to the professor, and the professor will carry you more or less to completion - very little indepenent thought needed. You do need to be able to do lots of (well defined, but tedious) work.

[pc86]

It's a shame that completing a mountain of well-defined, but tedious work with little independent thought is considered an original contribution to the field.

[roel_v]

Well of course it isn't, and you won't see any job openings saying 'looking for a 4 year slave'. And you generally hire people expecting them to be capable of working independently. But sometimes it doesn't turn out that way, and instead of losing years of work and effort, things just turn out a certain way.

[chrisseaton]

> rely mostly on rote memorization

What on earth would you be memorising and for what purpose?

[stealthmodeclan]

For same reason for which we memorize alphabets.

[chrisseaton]

Do people do PhDs in things similar to reciting the alphabet? What do you think the examination for a PhD involves? It's a thesis and oral example. You can't produce a thesis by memorising someone else's work.

[tsumnia]

My current research is on retyping coding examples because I believe we don't give enough repetition (or rote memorization) in CS and that initial frustration is a primary reason for the high attrition/failure rates.

To shift the view, I don't need to be a kinesiologist or nutritionist to work out. By all means, they help, but are not necessary. The "memorization" of repeatedly going to the gym creates the motivation to get better, which motivates learning how nutrition and kinesiology impact performance. The point is there is some degree of "regurgitation of facts" that is necessary for progress.

"To memorize" vs. "To understand" is the core difference in Eastern vs. Western education styles. You need both obviously, but when and where to "memorize" and when and where to "understand" are often debated. My research idea is that more foundation of facts is needed because then you can talk about theory without worrying someone doesn't understand.

(To invoke Bloom Taxonomy) So while I'm not "just memorizing" all these different meta-cognitive theories of how people learn, I need to know them well enough that I can apply them. Once I can apply them, I can evaluate them, and eventually see enough patterns that I can create my own models and theories.

[jrumbut]

I love the idea there. I know I and many others were taught coding by being plopped in front of an empty editor window.

If I had to design a curriculum that wouldn't happen until very late in the process. Start by copying, then modifying, then adding and subtracting elements, then get to wholly original creation.

I also imagine this would cut down on cheating. No more empty page terror, or panic to grab a solution.

[stealthmodeclan]

> You can't produce a thesis by memorising someone else's work

I did not imply this. If you looked up every basic result, you'll be demotivated easily.

It does require some memorization.

[doctorsher]

You bring up a solid point. It would be interesting to see, of the students leaving a PhD program with poor mental health, what fraction already entered the program with poor mental health? My hunch is that the stark majority acquired it while they were in the PhD program, but I have no data obviously.

[veritas3241]

This is the _exact_ reason I went to grad school. I didn't believe I was a "good enough" chemical engineer so I went to grad school. About 2-3 years I was miserable but stuck with it to get the letters after my name. Thankfully my program pushes us to get out in under 5 years.

I also struggled with mental health during my PhD, but there were a lot of compounding factors. The PhD was fuel on the fire, but not the spark.

Now I've transitioned successfully into the "data science" field, so I'm much happier!

[shoguning]

This is scarily close to me.

[veritas3241]

Not sure if you're talking about the Chemical Engineer part, but I've met a lot of people trained as ChemE's that have nothing to do with that profession. But maybe that's true of a lot of professions and I'm just biased!

[shoguning]

Did chem eng undergrad, a PhD (not fun), and am now a data scientist! I also worked on a website using public data and found out that only 7% of chem eng majors work in the field...

link: https://careertrend.com/major-chemical-engineering.html

Other majors (e.g. accounting, nursing) work much more in their field. There just arent many chem e jobs.

[stallmanifold]

I find this funny since I had the opposite experience: at the time I left undergrad I didn't think I had the chops to do a Ph.d., so I went into industry instead.