[jarcane]

Their “wonderful” hardware costs a lot of money, is chronically underpowered compared to the competition, basically doesn’t exist in some form factors, and regularly comes with unnecessary and user hostile features.

Frankly, I can get the same or better hardware in a Thinkpad, which was designed with actual users in mind rather than aesthetics, is more durable, has better battery life, still has a real keyboard, is still upgradeable and repairable, and also for less money.

I have loved Macs all my life, but they have been coasting hard on reputation over delivery for awhile now.

[komali2]

I can't for the life of me understand why Thinkpad doesn't nuke Mac in sales, other than I guess marketing? Or just maybe people prefer the "simplicity" of MacOS? Because Apple hardware is pretty?

I must be neckbearding, because from an objective standpoint, it doesn't make any damn sense. Swappable batteries (on some models), universally better keyboards (at the very least, more robust!), usually far cheaper for far better internals, ability to swap hardware out, before-market and after-market customization options...

This whole "but it just works" thing doesn't make sense to me, because my latest job gave me a macbook pro and it didn't "just work" - desktop config was weird (fullscreen opens in some random ass place and desktop locations were completely randomly assigned), nothing was configurable like I wanted, I couldn't dual boot well (windows/ubuntu on my thinkpad)... No yea, I am definitely neckbearding here, my argument basically boils down to "but it's not Linux wah!"

[dkonofalski]

I think you are neckbearding because it sounds like a lot of your issues just boil down to unfamiliarity with the OS. There's a ton you can configure especially if you're comfortable with the command-line, which, as a Linux user, it sounds like you are.

[mbell]

> Swappable batteries (on some models),

I don't see the advantage, why would I pay the size / weight penalty? I don't use my machine long enough on battery in a single sitting to gain any benefit from extra batteries.

> universally better keyboards (at the very least, more robust!),

That is not an objective statement, its purely subjective.

> usually far cheaper for far better internals,

Not really, if you actually build a comparable machine the 'apple tax' doesn't even exist for many of their product, and is a couple hundred bucks for the rest. I spend a significant portion of my life on a computer, a couple hundred bucks means nothing. What you can do, and what usually happens when people do cost comparisons, is cheap out on some parts and come up with something considerably cheaper. That's fine, but it's no longer an apples to apples comparison and not a matter of Apple charging too much.

> ability to swap hardware out, before-market and after-market customization options...

Hardly anyone does this, even for desktops. I've been building my own PCs for ~20 years now. I remember the days of the 440BX chipset, when it came out you may have had a ~250Mhz cpu and 128MB of RAM, but just a couple years later you could toss a ~1Ghz PIII and multiple GB of ram it in cheaply. Thing is, that doesn't happen anymore. CPUs aren't advancing that fast and by the time you would want to upgrade the CPU there is a pretty good chance the new CPU requires a new chipset. RAM is also stagnant, we aren't seeing higher density or cheap prices (quite the opposite on prices actually, they have sky-rocketed). Point is, the last 3 PCs builds I've had are fully expandable and everything is swappable, yet the only component that has changed in any of them is the GPU. Expandability just isn't terribly important anymore.

[komali2]

> That is not an objective statement

How can you possibly say that when MBP keyboards are failing left and right from single grains of sand, while Lenovo keyboards are being lauded for their indestructibility by multiple hardware ratings sites?

> Hardly anybody does this

You seem to not, but I do regularly. I just last month stuck an SSD into an old laptop (which to be fair you can do for some macbook models), and my desktops regularly get upgraded piecemeal...

[berbec]

> CPUs aren't advancing that fast and by the time you would want to upgrade the CPU there is a pretty good chance the new CPU requires a new chipset.

This is true in intel land, but AMD has kept compatible mobos for many, many cycles now. Ryzen is the first forced refresh, and I'd say you should be very willing to pay the extra to go from Bulldozer to Zen

[mbell]

> This is true in intel land, but AMD has kept compatible mobos for many, many cycles now.

Not really, AM3+ only supported Bulldozer and Piledriver. _Some_ AM3 boards could support these CPUs, but not all that many and only at certain TDPs. It's basically the same deal as intel, you get about 2 cycles per chipset, it's just that AMD didn't release anything new for quite a long time.

[pfranz]

I was seriously looking at Linux laptops last year and ended up begrudgingly getting another Macbook Pro. Here's my perspective when I looked at Thinkpads;

There's a series: X, T, P, and A. I really hate when companies do this (I also think Apple does this a bit too much). "Powerful mobile workstations" or "Renowned professional tools" doesn't really help me narrow things down. Trying to seek these out in person, retail stores like Best Buy or the Microsoft store carry between 1 to 3 models total.

I never got the appeal of swappable batteries. I had multiple batteries about 10 years ago (mostly because one was EOL and I kept it around). Since it had to charge in the laptop I had to remember to swap it to keep both charged. I looked at external chargers; if it existed it was too much money (a few hundred dollars). This sort of workflow makes sense in a professional environment, like a photographer on set all day. That's what is done with camera batteries, but is too much of a pain for someone who just wants a bit of freedom from a desktop. I had a lot of skepticism when Apple dropped the removable battery; their swappable batteries lasted 5 hrs when new and had something like 200 cycles. The non-removable batteries had 6-8 hrs, went up to 1000 cycles, and were about the same cost to replace (and it was just a matter of unscrewing the case).

Even though I didn't like the new Mac keyboards as much as the old ones, I liked the Thinkpad's keyboard even less--which is a fairly subjective choice. The trackpads I found on every non-Mac laptop was objectively worse.

Connectivity: I really like that it charges with USB-C (I was quick to eliminate laptops with proprietary charging), but that's the only USB-C port. I never really found a laptop with 1 USB-A and a couple USB-C ports. At least for my use-case multiple USB-C ports and carrying an adapter works well for me now and I expect adapter use to decline over the life of use.

I was looking at the X1, which had memory soldered on. The laptops in the same "class" as the Macbook pro (size and weight), the PC versions used the same chipset and had similar compromises...which also meant the prices were fairly similar.

If, for example, you're looking for a chunkier and heavier laptop with swappable parts Apple doesn't make that laptop, but if general, if you like most of the concessions, similar models aren't that much cheaper and don't really offer that much more.

[komali2]

Right, I see where you're coming from. RE: connectivity, I think I'm misunderstanding you here, but the latest x1s do charge via USB-c, and come with 2 USBc ports and 2 usbA ports... and a headphone jack ;)

I just checked the laptop I'm typing this on to confirm this.

[pfranz]

I was looking almost a year ago so I wasn't looking at gen6. Also, it may have had 2 usb-c ports (one of a very few if not the only)...so I might have been mistaken about that, but eliminated it for other reasons. On that topic of headphones (afaik all Macbook Pros still have headphone ports), Airpods improved the miserable experience of bluetooth headphones by a lot...but I feel like it's still 2/3rds to where it should be. It also still sucks during those times where you don't have them handy and need other options or the fact game consoles don't support them. It sucks that so many phone manufacturers followed Apple's lead, there.

I hope PC laptops keep getting better because I'll check them out again in 3-6 years when I look to buy another. I feel like the new laptop is worse than my previous one in a bunch of areas that Apple used to excel at; no LED when charging (I've already plugged it in to charge while the other end was not plugged into the wall), wake time is closer to what I'd expect from a cold boot with an SSD (around 10 seconds instead of 0-3), I really dislike the half-height arrow keys, and the camera has the exact same specs as my 2011 model.

[sbuk]

They also have a terrible spongy keyboard and a horrible trackpad and cost as much as the MacBook Pro.

[komali2]

Weird, I have only found review sites that laud the keyboard (even sites that don't really give the laptop a good rating for other reasons). At the very least, they can certainly handle a grain of sand better than a new MBP ;)

It could just be your subjective experience, though! Aint nobody can come between a person and their feelings.