[haeffin]

Why wouldn't it have good coordination? A bot has access to a perfect model of how the other bot would act - itself.

Also, computer engines didn't seal the doom of human players in chess and in go, so I don't get why it would do so in dota.

[BigJono]

I think by 'seal the doom' he just means that this result shows that OpenAI is almost definitely going to be able to defeat a pro team in an unrestricted game of DotA.

Which I'm still not completely sold on. It's likely, but the remaining restrictions aren't trivial by any means. There's an outside chance that removing one or more of them is going to brickwall their progress.

[sakarisson]

One should keep in mind that some of the restrictions were in place to prevent the bots from having too easy of a time. For example, the anti micro/illusion rule was intended to limit the obviously superior micro coordination of the bots.

[Ntrails]

I'm not sure that's true? I can see the bots being utterly terrifying with meepo in a teamfight - but would need supports stacking, proper farm prioritisation (much more use of jungling and ancients), etc etc.

I genuinely believe the bot would win a game of turbo against any team in the world. But remove _all_ of the restrictions and it's not clear that it doesn't just lose at the moment

[Karlozkiller]

They specifically said they would have to implement a special case for heroes that control more than one unit in the future.

So you're saying that even before they set up a rule about microing illusions to protect humans from a feature that they have not yet implemented nor, I assume, have trained the model on?

[hohenheim]

Not only that, but also lets not forget humans learn as well. Meaning the more games players play against the bot the better they would become at understanding and defeating it.

[randomamazondev]

> Why wouldn't it have good coordination? A bot has access to a perfect model of how the other bot would act - itself.

As far as I know it is five (Hence the name) individual AI instances controlling each character and with basically no AI to AI communication.

It is not one overriding AI controlling all five.

I have no idea if the AI instance controlling each character is identical though, if so then your statement still holds true I guess (Assuming each AI has the exact same information to work with which might be the case). It would be interesting to see if AIs specialised.

[iotb]

There's a presiding team value function that impacts and steers team play. The bots 'communicate' through this. There's nothing magical going on.

As a counter bot strategy, I'd work on how to break and trick it using multiple-stepped logic that an optimization function would be unable to see beyond. I'd also use varying tactics of chaotic/sporadic configurations. The bot isn't 'playing fair' nor should a human w/ intelligence. The advantage being that a human can think along a multitude of strategies and adapt. The bot is only optimizing some steps ahead.

Their 1v1 bot was defeated in this manner and it just goes to show what true intellect and superiority is. I've played random pub games w/ little to no communication and have had all other 4 players converge on different strategies based on a perception of what's going on. If someone decided to cheese/snowball, you simply wait it out and let them push themselves into a nightmare. I saw little to none of this in the games I watched which leads me to question the intelligence of said 'pros'.

[ufo]

The team value function is just a hyperparameter that describes how greedy the individual agents are. At the start of training the team spirit is 0 and the bots are only rewarded for their own actions. This encourages them to learn basic micro skills, like last hitting. As training progresses the team spirit is increased. When it finally reaches 1, the bots value a reward for a teammate as highly as a reward for themselves.

The actual source of the "communication" is not the team spirit parameter, but the basic fact that the bots have been trained together and they receive the same inputs when making decisions. Unlike humans, who have a limited focus to their attention, the bots can look at the whole map at once. They don't need to communicate because the already "know" what their allies will do when given the same input.