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by david927 2874 days ago
This is vague and insulting.

Good. It should be. Get mad about that. Get so mad that you devote time and effort to fixing it.

Programming compared to other disciplines is what might arise from a Lord of the Flies situation. Like the end of that novel, we should stop, fall at the feet of a comparison of programming to other disciplinnes, and weep tears of shame.
2 comments
Vinnl 2874 days ago
> Get so mad that you devote time and effort to fixing it.

Interestingly, I feel that insulting people is one of the worst possible ways to get them to change their behaviour.

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stcredzero 2874 days ago
But if you're so cynical you just want to help people more quickly seek their own doom...then pass the popcorn! This should be good!
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david927 2874 days ago
He's not actively insulting anyone; he's calling a spade a spade, he's telling the truth, and if you find that insulting then change that reality.
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Vinnl 2874 days ago
The person you replied to called it insulting. It's not really about what you think they should do; all I'm saying is what I think it's likely people will do. Formulating criticism in a way that the people it applies to are not insulted is, I think, the best way to actually get them to fix it.

It's hard, I know. But all I'd do when someone refers to Rubik's Cubes and DnD is shrug it off and think it doesn't apply to me.

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AstralStorm 2874 days ago
The easiest fix is to debunk the article. Which reflects the author not spending enough time writing kidding critical software and too much with cool startup kids.

There is no technical solution to a social problem caused by hiring cheap young and naive programmers.

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ofrzeta 2874 days ago
While I agree that it's a social problem I think it's more of an industry problem than a hiring problem. The industry generates sales by putting new tech first over solving business problems. So you have customers like big companies and consulting companies that hire "cheap young and naive programmers" with little experience who are willing to jump any hype train. After all it is easier to just learn the latest bunch of technologies opposed to recap decades of computing history. Then the young programmers implement proof of concepts in, say, cloud, containers, serverless and BigCo execs are satisfied because they can proof they are trying out new stuff. It doesn't matter that it's not maintainable or sustainable because it's thrown away after one year anyway, when the cycle starts over.

Obviously I am exaggerating but it's still a huge part of reality.

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david927 2874 days ago
The author is Jonathan Edwards who was a fellow at MIT and is an eminent Computer Scientist.

The article stands true on its own, and is not a simple indictment of a class of programmers.

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AstralStorm 2874 days ago
Well, if anything, MIT actually is the startup and cool stuff mine lately in addition to strong CS.

Programming can be made as accessible as spreadsheets to common people when they become as good at baseline logic as good programmers. (This is not that high of a bar actually for your average cheap coder.)

Designing CRUD apps has been automated before, as have been macro systems like iMacros or AutoIt or the venerable Windows Recorder. RAD tools still exist but common people don't want them. Graphical junk like LabVIEW also still exists.

Automating modifying applications runs counter to job security and would enforce a specific architectural decisions forever... Too expensive unless it is for mission critical software.

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