[kev009]

This is such a contrasting comment I am curious if you remember how you consumed information back then to i.e. develop admiration for the whistleblowers, and retain the political operative narrative that Obama was somehow sympathetic and good to these causes.

[blhack]

Obama was not sympathetic to these causes. That's why it would have gained him so much respect from me.

I posted the quote in another reply, so sorry for repeating it, but: "I disagree with what you are saying, but will defend to the death your right to say it."

This value is probably the most important to me, and it is something that I think is fundamentally American. I would have loved to see Obama exhibit it.

[dnautics]

Can you give an example in Obama's political tenure when he had ever done anything consistent with that sentiment or that strategy?

Politically, Obama's heroes are the progressives of the Wilsonian and Roosevelt era. Wilson jailed Eugene Debs for sedition, and ironically it took the era's conservative firebrand (H L Mencken) rabble-rousing about it in exactly that spirit and eventually Harding (not exactly a socialist) commuted Debs' sentence.

For that matter: Can you think of an example when any politician or political figure in power in the US in recent memory has done something like that? I'm not comprehensively knowledgeable about US politics, but the only one I can think of is Clarence Thomas voting against the majority in Texas V Lawrence, where he said he was opposed to laws forbidding gay sex, but he didn't think the supreme court should rule on it, and he would vote to strike down the law if he were in the Texas State Legislature.

[nostrademons]

H.L. Mencken wasn't really a conservative firebrand, more of an iconoclast. His position then could be likened to that of Trey Parker & Matt Stone today, i.e. shits on everything, liberal and conservative, for the lulz, and occasionally makes some very perceptive social commentary in the process.

[dnautics]

that's very fair, although I would say he was more sophisticated than Matt & Trey, and his favorite enemy was FDR.

[kev009]

Ok, I can see where you're coming from. You are wishing a standing president would do a good thing. It's a nuanced way to form an argument or ideal because the leaders have become so politically charged (imagine trying to promote any idea to a left-wing audience and tying in Trump, most would shut their brains off and attack the messenger which isn't so different than what happened here).

[anothergoogler]

Does the meaning of your comment change in any way if you replace Obama with Trump, or "a sitting president"? I don't believe in the "deep state", but I think all presidents are equally beholden to the intelligence apparatus, and none would dare provoke it.

[hardlianotion]

I thought Trump actually did quite a good job provoking the intelligence apparatus just last week with Putin.

[nostrademons]

I would assume he used Obama's name because Chelsea Manning's conviction, and Snowden & Assange's exile, all happened during Obama's presidency.

I think it's likely that Trump, Bush, and all other sitting presidents would do the same thing, but the only other prominent example we have is Reality Winner, who just pled guilty last month, hasn't really occupied the headlines, and isn't the subject of discussion here.

[anothergoogler]

Thanks for the reference, I hadn't heard about Winner and will have to read up on it now. (Also that's quite the name!).

[s73v3r_]

That quote has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation, and it's being overused to the point of making it meaningless.