[theBobBob]

Very slightly off topic but I actually think how Android handles default apps is the best of both worlds. It comes with very very good default Google Apps that work well together but it is very easy to switch out whatever you want for an alternative. How iOS handles it is the opposite. For their default apps they either straight out not allow competitors, severely limit what their competitors or (if I remember correctly) they even removed apps when a newer iOS added Apple's own version so they were now "competing".

I know that anti-trust laws are probably not applicable as Apple does have a dominant position based on total market share, but to me this practice seems far more anti-competitive. Banning competitors seems worse than fully allowing competitors but providing your own as default that can easily be changed.

[lucb1e]

> but it is very easy to switch out whatever you want for an alternative

Do tell how one could switch out the map from Google Maps to anything else (Bing, OpenStreetMap, whatever).

Or how I could get rid of Google+ without needing to wipe my device or use a zero-day.

Or perhaps how I could get apk files from their repository without agreeing to the Google TOS and privacy policy, and without using some hacky system like Yalp store that breaks every couple of weeks for a little while.

This is definitely not easy to swap out. I bet that even from the top 10% of tech-savvy people on hacker news, there's 9%. that cannot figure out how to remove google completely within a normal working day of 8 hours.

[makomk]

You switch out the map app like this, same way you change the default app for anything else: https://360.here.com/2015/01/29/swap-google-maps-here-androi... (The instructions for switching to, say, Google's own Waze app are pretty much the same too.) This is as I understand it not possible on Apple's iOS; even if you install a third-party mapping application, everything else on the system which opens up a map will still use Apple's map.

[lucb1e]

That's a location picker. I'm talking about the map view on which applications show you things, such as live views of all trains in the country or something.

And this is just one example, there are a hundred more things that are in the proprietary google suite, without which you'll be able to install only a few of the apps available for the platform.

[ehsankia]

Hmm, those are the specific apps using Google Maps API. That's like saying why does HackerNews use jQuery, I want it to use lodash. (I don't know if they do, just an example).

[lucb1e]

Don't they just call the default maps sdk, whatever implementation it is? Because if I firewall google play services and some other google stuff, but not the app that uses it, then everything will work but the map isn't displayed. It's google play services that does the map loading, not the app, it seems.

[ewoodrich]

The OP was talking about built-in Android support for changing defaults using intents. It's a pop-up menu, and is pretty easy to understand even for non-HN users.

[ehsankia]

> how one could switch out the map from Google Maps

Just install another maps app and set it as default? And just because Bing and Apple haven't created Android apps doesn't mean it's Google's fault.

> Or how I could get rid of Google+ without needing to wipe my device or use a zero-day.

Most phone these days don't even come with Google+, and if they do, no one is forcing you to login. You can disable it entirely.

> how I could get apk files from their repository without agreeing to the Google TOS and privacy policy

Doesn't that apply to almost any software with a license?

[lucb1e]

> Doesn't that apply to almost any software with a license?

But Android claims be FOSS. I understand that "using google servers" != "the AOSP project", but there's a large number of apps whose only publication channel is this ubiquitous play store, because the devs know that practically everyone who has Android will opt into the google kingdom as well. If it was closed source like iOS and if you can't even sideload apks (or ipas or whatever they are) then I'd not be surprised that I have to agree to some near-monopoly's TOS and privpolicy in order to get access to 99% of the published apps.

[davb]

I've noticed that on iOS, Google can be quite pushy with regards to their apps. No matter how many times I click "don't ask me again", Hangouts always asks if I want to install Chrome whenever I try to open a web link (in Safari). And I get constant nags on Gmail web to install Gmail on my iPhone to "get the full experience" (as opposed to using the bundled iOS Mail app).

[indemnity]

Noticed that today. I’m never going to install Chrome on iOS, stop asking!

[lele0108]

Hey! I've been trying to get in touch with you (I'm doing some research on Retail). Can you drop me an email? My email: [e-mail], thanks!

[jamesgeck0]

In most of their apps, there's a "Google app settings" screen in preferences. Each section defaults to "Ask me which app to use every time."

[SiempreViernes]

Could you please tell me how I can uninstall the default apps, or at least keep them from constantly updating themselves? That half a gig of unwanted apps that just keeps growing itself is pretty annoying.

[tssva]

In settings go to apps, select the app you wish to stop updating and then select disable. All updates to the app will be removed and the app will no longer update.

[andyjohnson0]

Default apps are often built-in and can't be uninstalled. But you can disable them. See https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/2521768 for details. If you do this then it's worth uninstalling any updates to the app first, to free-up some space.

[petecox]

The apps are typically installed to a read-only System partition.

With 'root' access, it's possible to remove them via a superuser app or adb - or it used to be the case.

[theBobBob]

True, that bit is a bit annoying, but again, not being able to switch out or uninstall default apps is much worse than just not being able to uninstall default apps.

[sjy]

> I know that anti-trust laws are probably not applicable as Apple does have a dominant position based on total market share

It's an interesting question though, because it depends on which 'market' you're talking about. This is a vexed question in antitrust law [1]. There is some pending litigation in the United States as to whether Apple illegally monopolized the market for iPhone apps [2], but it's been brought by app purchasers rather than the regulator, and Apple has taken the case to the Supreme Court to argue that the purchasers don't have standing to sue.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relevant_market

[2]: http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/apple-v-pepper/

[DaiPlusPlus]

It would be perverse if the court ordered Apple to modify iOS to support third-party app-stores. I see it as the same situation as video game console licensing: all games for the Xbox, PS and Nintendo must be approved by the platform owner and they take a cut from all sales.

The "happy medium" we have today: where jailbreaking was found to be not illegal, works for as long as we can jailbreak. I note that iOS does now allow sideloaded apps too, though they still must run in the sandbox, but it does mean you can distribute an app that wouldn't be approved for the App Store.

The EU had another workaround: impose a higher import tariff on video game consoles than general-purpose computers. Sony released a Linux kit for the PS2 so they could say the PS2 was a general-purpose computer, not a console. I think it worked initially but because hardly anyone bought the Linux kit (it wasn't sold at retail with the console) the customs people took a look and Sony had to start paying higher tariffs.

[SparklingCotton]

But what you can do as a user is not really relevant.

I cannot change the defaults in an Android phone and sell it to you. That's the problem.

[bendiksolheim]

Do you have a source for this? I can’t remember Apple disallowing an app because Apple itself provides a similar app. I checked the default apps quickly on my phone, and can find several competitors for all of them. If you are talking about the "apps" Messages.app or Phone.app then I guess you might be right if we define "not providing a public API" the same as "disallowing on the App Store".

[repolfx]

The policy no longer applies but for a long time, from the start of the app store, you weren't allowed to make apps that "duplicated the functionality" of the built in apps.

Notably Google made their own maps app and Apple banned it:

http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-screws-google-over-lati...

But it also applied to iTunes competitors:

https://www.engadget.com/2008/09/12/app-disqualified-from-ap...

[SparklingCotton]

That's a good reason why fines (like what Google is getting) should be huge.

It's deliberate to kill competition while not being in a dominant position, and then when in a dominant position, continue the trajectory by defining defaults.

The Apple apps are dominant partially because of the abusive rules the app store had earlier. It's quite clear from the fact that in any area where Apple did not have a default app, they are unable to match what the free market offers.

[rhodysurf]

You can’t choose what happens is the default on an iPhone. If I want to use Gmail to open mailto links I cannot. If I want to use chrome to open web links by default, I cannot.

On Android you can pick whatever apps you want as the default.

[bendiksolheim]

I might have misunderstood what theBobBob meant with "default apps" completely, but that was not how I understood it at all. As far as I understand, he talks about disallowing apps on the App Store, so this would be a completely different point (to which I agree, setting a different browser would be nice).

[rhodysurf]

They don’t allow apps that have similar functionality as well. On my phone, but when AirPods came out they pulled an app that helped you find your AirPods from the store because they included their own version of the same tool in an update

[bendiksolheim]

I was unaware of this exact case, thanks for the information. I agree that pulling apps such as this is very unfortunate.

[TheArcane]

> It comes with very very good default Google Apps that work well together

Have you tried Google Duo?