[pjc50]

If grammar (you spelt this incorrectly) schools were effective at improving society as a whole, you'd be able to measure an effect in the places in the UK where they were retained. Especially Northern Ireland.

Instead you have to address what happens to the 50% of people who don't get into the selective schools. You can't improve overall quality through rejecting students, because there's no "away" to reject them to!

People who are actually involved in education are more likely to tell you that the key factor for most of the lower-achieving students is obstacles, especially out of school; are they getting enough sleep and 3 square meals a day? Do they have at least one parent around who's engaged in their education? What obstacles does that parent face? Is the child being bullied at school or home? etc.

[petercooper]

you'd be able to measure an effect in the places in the UK where they were retained.

I live in a very rural area where a grammar school has been maintained (which my wife attended) and most of the people who go there end up at good universities and then move away for good careers in distant cities. Meanwhile, the people at the comprehensives usually end up staying in our area on lower paid jobs.

Does this lead to be a better society? It certainly provides a way for poorer but smarter people to find a way 'out' of a humdrum rural location, but I don't think it makes our area any better in and of itself.

[Wildgoose]

I find it interesting that the non-Grammar "comprehensive/secondary modern" schools in areas with Grammar Schools actually perform better than Comprehensive schools (such as the one I attended) in areas where Grammar Schools have been abolished.

Does this mean that such schools apply more focus to issues such as the ones you list in order to better compete?

[pjc50]

Possibly. The key issue is the politics; selective public schooling allows the schools to be treated unequally by the resource allocation system, where the one with the worse performing pupils gets less resources and is less preferred by staff, reinforcing the cycle.

[throwaway426079]

If I understood correctly, you are taking the opposite view from the parent post?