[betadreamer]

Keep in mind that this is showing the "reported" hours, which can be misleading. For example it shows that people in US works more than Japan but I know for a fact that people in Japan works A LOT more. However, since it is a cultural thing and they expect you to work long hours, no one reports overtime. I even heard that you can get fired if you report it.

[CalRobert]

Another HNer put this together and I thought it was really interesting with regards to determining real expected working hours vs reported hours.

(Using bikeshare ride data to determine peak hours and length of workday)

http://olivernash.org/2011/02/02/dublin-bikes-revisited/inde...

[hectormalot]

Also keep in mind that the numbers are not corrected for part-time vs full-time figures.

e.g. my country (the Netherlands) is listed as 1439 hours vs Mexico 2257 hours annually per worker. You might come to the conclusion that people in Mexico work must longer than in the Netherlands. However, only 17% of people in Mexico work part-time, vs 37% in the Netherlands. Countries with low participation of part-time workers therefore will look as if they are working much longer hours.

[moate]

But why would you need to correct for that? If more of the labor force works part time, more of the labor force is working fewer hours. Are you assuming these part time workers are carrying multiple jobs which aren't being listed in sum (eg 20 Hours/week at Job A, 10 Hours/week at job B for 30 hours, instead of 15 if each job is separate?)

[hectormalot]

More likely that the part time force consists of families where both parents work eg 60-80%. This is at least quite common for friends around me.

Perhaps ‘correcting’ is the wrong word. But the title feels like: this is a ranked list which countries work hardest. I think the figure fails to capture that a family where both parents work 30 hours is not working less than a family where only one parent works 50 hours.

In my opinion, if that’s the comparison we want to make, it would be more fair to look at average hours worked per capita, or average hours worked per capita between ages 16-70, or something similar. That would capture both average hours and labor force participation.

[ithkuil]

To the other extreme: why would you correct for unemployment (which is what happens if you measure worked hours only for those who have a job)? After all an unemployed person is a "part-time" worker where the fraction of time spent working is exactly zero.

[mercutio2]

Agreed. Hours worked per prime-age inhabitant, would be very interesting.

[germinalphrase]

Would you attribute this higher rate of part time work to a strong social welfare system in the Netherlands or to some other factor?

[stevesimmons]

Here are some "anecdata" from my 6 years working in the Netherlands:

* 4 day weeks are very common: I worked for a Dutch Bank for 3 years. Virtually all the Dutch "full time" staff worked 4 day weeks. The deal was work 10% less (36 instead of 40 hours), extend the working day a notional one hour on Monday to Thursday, and take every Friday off. Not bad for a 10% reduction in salary. And since everyone does it - even senior managers - there is no loss in promotion prospects.

* High levels of self-employment as independent contractors - "ZZP-ers" - zelfstandig zonder personeel (self-supporting without employees), often from mid-career professionals taking redundancy packages and setting up for themselves with greater flexibility for work-life balance at often slightly lower take home pay.

* Strong social net, health system, pension provision, social housing, etc, mean most Dutch people have very little to worry about. They can afford to prioritise enjoying life over being a slave to their employer.

One final anecdote concerns my local cafe in Amsterdam... In Melbourne, the equivalent cafe opened at 6:30am and was busy by 7am. The one near me in Amsterdam opened at 8:29am (yes, not 8:30...). When I asked why they didn't open earlier, the owner said the staff didn't want to start that early, and neither did he.

[schnevets]

The ZZP idea is particularly intriguing to me. Do you think this is a direct result of the strong social net, or a sense of independence that existed in Dutch culture before benefits?

[roel_v]

What 'strong social net' are people referring to in this thread? As an independent contractor ('zzp'), you don't get unemployment benefits, no insurance against not being able to work and you have to get your own health insurance like everyone else. 'Bijstand'? I mean, that's food stamp level, and you can't have any assets to be eligible in the first place.

[refurb]

HN has a core belief that many EU countries have an immensely more generous social safety net than the US despite the US having welfare, social security, Medicaid and Medicare, food stamps, etc.

Having lives in Canada for many years, I didn’t find it that different than the US with the exception of healthcare.

[stevesimmons]

An additional factor is employment laws give strong protection to full time workers. As the economy recovered after the 2008 financial crisis, employers found it cheaper and less risky to use more flexworkers.

Flexworkers come in two main categories:

- Uitzendkracht - agency workers, hired via an employment bureau such as Adecco, Randstat.

- ZZP-ers - often independent consultants, in many cases starting with a former employer as their initial client.

[RWSen]

It's the equivalent of working as a contractor. The main benefit is that you pay less taxes into the social welfare system, primarily a ZZP'er doesn't have to pay into a pension fund. The government tries to make being a ZZP'er advantageous, as it is perceived as being great for the economy.

[Fnoord]

A lot of ZZPers aren't really self employed. As an example, an Uber driver would be a ZZPer therefore avoiding certain rights and laws a normal employee would have. Another example would be MLM such as a Tupperware salesman. They also don't get pension.

[toomanybeersies]

What time do cafes usually close in Amsterdam?

Because it seems that the standard in Australia and NZ is for cafes to open early and close early, at around 3pm or 4pm.

[dwightgunning]

(Australian living in Amsterdam)

Anecdotally, most cafes close at 5pm here. When I was in Melbourne earlier this year I found the 3/4pm close times a little inconvenient based on what I’m used to here.

On the flip side, very few places are open for coffee or breakfast out before 8am.

[stevesimmons]

(ex-Melbournian living in London/Amsterdam with a sister who owned cafes in Melbourne ...)

In Melbourne there are two kinds of cafes (to overgeneralize):

- Those in areas with nightlife are open at least 07:00-22:30 (e.g. The Fitz, Marios in Brunswick St, Brunetti's in Carlton). Most customers sit down for meals or coffee and cake. They have full restaurant-style kitchens and make their margins from a traditional food menu and serving wine with dinner.

- Those in office areas are typically open 06:30-15:00 for breakfast and lunch and maybe an early afternoon coffee. They often operate out of smaller premises, have just a couple of tables, and most customers take-away. They make most of their margin from coffee. Food is simple - sandwiches, soup and salads - because they have minimal kitchen areas.

My sister used to own one of these cafes that closed at 3pm. After previously owning a hotel that was a very full 24x7 job, they decided to live in a rural area outside Melbourne to build their own house. Owning this type of cafe was attractive because they would be home by the time their kids got out of school.

[roel_v]

Low labor participation in women. The part timers are overwhelmingly women, in a 'typical' household, the man works full time and the woman 2 or 3 days (especially once there are children, but even before that). This effect is even more pronounced in higher educated women, who can afford this arrangement. There are many research papers about this topic but there is no clear reason. The most common conclusion is that it's cultural; Dutch women strongly feel that mothers are best suited to raise children.

[Reactionary_]

Considering millions of years of evolution shaped female brains to be the primary caregivers, isn't this a common sense approach and explanation for the behavior?

[roel_v]

I don't know, I tried my hardest to keep my post non-normative - it's basically a factual one paragraph summary of every goverment report on this of the last 15 years. In the context of the overall thread, the underlying point is that 'nr of hours worked' is only one data point, and is only meaningful when interpreted for a well defined purpose and when considered with many other factors.

[smueller1234]

Not a complete response to your question, but at least it is very common for families to to have both parents working part time (eg. four days each) and pay for childcare only for the remaining days. In countries where it's more common to have one full time salary in a family, the average working time per worker would be higher.

[germinalphrase]

inlove that that is a common arrangement for parents. Do businesses accommodate a reduction in hours to facilitate this?

We’re not very accommodating of parenthood here in the US. Medical costs aside, my employer only offers two weeks of paid parental leave after having a child.

[hectormalot]

In short: yes, many businesses facilitate this.

Ironically, Dutch paternity leave is only 2 days (paid), but you’re legally allowed to take something like 26 weeks unpaid in the first few years as parental leave. (Vs e.g. Sweden with 6-9 months). The law is changing to a few weeks next year I believe.

I think it differs by employer. Mine gives extra days paid leave for parents as they consider the 2 days too short (but this is uncommon) and proactively asked if I was considering 90% or 80% for the coming year, and shared how others have done this.

At my wife’s workplace there are many people with children, and the large majority works either 3 or 4 days per week.

[germinalphrase]

Two weeks is common in the US; however, it tends to be all-or-nothing with regard to hours.

[ericd]

That really depends on the employer. One large US employer I know of (Cisco) offers full salary for something like five or six months, and also offers grandparent leave.

[tpeo]

>Average annual hours worked is defined as the total number of hours actually worked per year divided by the average number of people in employment per year. Actual hours worked include regular work hours of full-time, part-time and part-year workers, paid and unpaid overtime, hours worked in additional jobs, and exclude time not worked because of public holidays, annual paid leave, own illness, injury and temporary disability, maternity leave, parental leave, schooling or training, slack work for technical or economic reasons, strike or labour dispute, bad weather, compensation leave and other reasons

https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm

[EZ-E]

I think that also explains why Germany is so low on the list

[patio11]

I have a joke about this which is reasonably descriptive of the mechanism: Japan has a 45 hour work week. Men work 80; women work 10.

(If you prefer the non-joking version you can Google for social science research in Japanese or English; eyeballing the graph here should quickly confirm the impression "Oh yes most women who are employed are not full-time equivalents for either the standard or Japanese understanding of that phrase." https://www.oecd.org/els/family/LMF_2_1_Usual_working_hours_... )

It is, FWIW, not the case that no one reports overtime. (It is also not the case that everyone reports the correct hours worked. The practice at my previous employer was "We know that you're all diligent and work overtime, and we compensate you for it, of course. The company average is 30 hours of overtime per month. You will, naturally, manage your schedule sufficiently to get your work done in a reasonable fashion, and not violate the Labor Standards Act by working more than X hours per month." And, if you were to check my time cards, you would have seen that I was very diligent about following instructions, in the matter befitting a salaryman at a proper Japanese company.)

[fffernan]

You would also have to factor the amount of time spent socializing at work versus actually doing work. In Japan most of your friends are at work, and relationships are in work. Lots of coffee breaks, chatting about non work related matters,etc,etc. 8 hours spent at the office in US is much more work being done than 12 hours of busy Asian country. That being said there certainly was a good amount of people actually working themselves to death for 15hours day actually working while their bosses did not much work. Source: Worked at a Japanese company for almost a decade.

[hrktb]

> people in Japan work A LOT more

No they don’t. Not your average part-time worker at the supermarket registry, nor your mostly stay at home mother doing 4h a day at the convinience store.

This study is not just about high profile workers, it’s for the global working population, “blue collar” and part timers included.

[JimmyAustin]

As with most surveys, the average isn't very insightful, and you need to dive further in to the distribution to learn anything. I imagine Japan has a bimodal distribution split between on and off the salarymen track.

[xevb3k]

If you know it for a fact, could you supply some data that would help back this up?

I’m not saying they don’t, but legally Japanese workers have more paid time off than Americans [1]. Japan also has a larger number of public holidays, which while not legally enforced, are generally taken.

I’d be curious to see data about when people actually arrive at and leave work, and how many holidays are taken.

[1] 10+ days versus 0. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave...

[getoj]

This question is also answered by the MHLW statistics [1].

On page 2, the line graph at the top represents the percentage of available paid leave days taken on average, with the absolute numbers below. So, the average worker in Heisei 25 (2013) had 18.5 days of leave, of which he took 9.0, or 48.8%.

(Not including public holidays.)

[1] https://www.mhlw.go.jp/file/05-Shingikai-11201000-Roudoukiju... (in Japanese)

[getoj]

A couple of people have made the point about full-time versus part-time work in Japan, which is actually covered by this [1] MHLW report on overwork.

The graph on the right on Page 1 has an orange line at the top representing the total hours worked per year by an average "ordinary" (meaning full-time) worker.

The red line below that represents the average part-time worker.

The dates are from Heisei 6 (1994) through 25 (2013).

So we can see that as of 2013, the average full-time worker in Japan reported that they worked 2018 hours a year. I'd be interested in seeing comparable statistics for the US and other countries.

[1] https://www.mhlw.go.jp/file/05-Shingikai-11201000-Roudoukiju... (in Japanese)

EDIT TO ADD: It's also worth noting that the increasing blue bars in the right-hand graph represent an increase in the percentage of people in part-time work, which corresponds to a decrease in overall (full- and part-time) work hours in the graph on the left (the blue line). So the arguments about a higher percentage of part-time workers being significant in lowering the average seem to be right.

[ekianjo]

> know for a fact that people in Japan works A LOT more.

No, you dont know it for a fact, and you should also add that Japanese working in large corporations just STAY late because they have to, not because they are actively working. So "working hours" is not always about work if you consider the time they are physically at work.

[kbenson]

> Japanese working in large corporations just STAY late because they have to, not because they are actively working.

I think that's a distinction without relevance, depending on what you are trying to infer from the data. Plenty of people spend a portion of their paid workday not doing work either, along a wide spectrum. Some people do no active work besides fill a seat, others take no breaks beyond what is required and stay on task the entire time (sometimes there is no option to do otherwise by the nature of the work). If you're at work, you aren't able to do certain other activities you might like to do (for example, it prevents spending time with your children, even if you are allowed to recline and watch a movie while at your desk).

We can measure hours working, we can measure productivity, or we can combine them, but it's probably not useful for us to start conflating them.

[foobaw]

Exactly what I wanted to say. I know it shows Korea as the 3rd most, but I feel like they should be higher on the list. Most don't report overtime and just do their work because it has become the convention and it wouldn't look good to their bosses.

[shanghaiaway]

Research like this exists because otherwise people would bring up what they "feel" the facts are.

[e12e]

Still, if this is total hours divided by workforce - at least in Japan I believe women are still more often stay at home, than in eg Norway? Not sure about South Korea.

[e12e]

From the description: > The concept used is the total number of hours worked over the year divided by the average number of people in employment. The data are intended for comparisons of trends over time; they are unsuitable for comparisons of the level of average annual hours of work for a given year, because of differences in their sources. Part-time workers are covered as well as full-time workers.

So if say, the average South Korean man works 2500 hours (full time, crazy hours) and the average woman works 1000 hours (pretty crazy part time job) - the average would still be below 2000 hours.

I suppose one of the more interesting numbers would be total hours worked vs total work force (including unemployed) - it might be that eg Greece could maintain current productivity (or more likely increase, due to less strain pr worker) by going to a 6 hour work day and ~full employment.

[mental1896]

Maybe I'm misreading the chart but it looks like it represents total hours. I don't know what the questionnaire looked like but, at least on the representation side, it appears that overtime is not considered.

[tpeo]

Reported by whom? What do those quotes mean?

[shanghaiaway]

> I know for a fact that people in Japan works A LOT more

Source? None? Ok, let's use the on linked here that contradicts you.

[microcolonel]

There is a lot more part time work in Japan, and this skews elderly; not sure but that would seem like one way the data could be more accurate than you think.

[gerdesj]

but I know for a fact that people in Japan works A LOT more

Your evidence ...