[ThomPete]

Well, first of all, how do you know I posted it? What does it mean to post something? How does what I posted manifest itself in reality if you aren't there to interpret my post.

Those are the kind of questions you would ask to start pulling it all apart. Those questions would be absurd in a normal discussion but in philosophy, they are important questions because they help us unravel our assumptions about the reality we often take for granted.

[Vaskivo]

> Well, first of all, how do you know I posted it? What does it mean to post something? How does what I posted manifest itself in reality if you aren't there to interpret my post.

I feel like you are not questioning the message but the way and the "tools" used to convey it. ("what are words?" "what does it really mean when you say X?"). You want to start the discussion by questioning the (supposed) common middle ground of understanding that will be used for it. This way, I think, you kind of refused to try to give an answer to your parent.

I don't claim the anyone can "know truth totally and completely". But, conceptually I think there is. In a particular point of the universe at a particular time there was a specific particle there. Or wasn't. It couldn't be and not be. Subjectively it may seem one thing or the other. O even both. But it was either there or not.

And how do you deny the truism "The Universe IS"[0]? If you deny it you face a paradox because how can you call it false if false doesn't exist?

[0] By "Universe" I mean everything that exists, existed and will exist. Concrete and abstract.

[ThomPete]

"the universe is" is just another version of Ayn Rands "Existence exists" (A = A).

But "the universe is" is just tautological I.e it doesn't help you understand the universe any better and you still have to define what you mean with universe even your [0] will run into all sorts of problems (like what is time, what does it mean something exists etc)

It's it's own axiom and conclusion in the same sentence.

Gödel proved that mathematically and logically with his "incompleteness theorem" but you can also as I did above show it in different ways.

And you are right I am not questioning the message I am questioning the assumptions of the message. As I have said other places.

You obviously can't have a normal everyday discussion like that i.e. we normally speak with a lot of assumptions many of them completely unfounded and still manage to get productive results.

But philosophically this is a different discussion where you are forced to question the assumptions of your axioms.

[Vaskivo]

> But "the universe is" is just tautological I.e it doesn't help you understand the universe any better...

So what matters is not what something _is_ but what something _means_?

And I used that tautology because a tautology eliminates the "everything is subjective". (Unless everybody's opinion is the same. But that makes still a subjective opinion?)

[ThomPete]

Saying "The universe is" doesn't say what something Objectively is or what it means.

Tautologies are semantic and thus bound by the axiom of language itself. I.e. "universe" is an assumption, an axiom.

So no it doesn't really eliminate "everything is subjective" it fits perfectly into the postmodern critique of language itself.

[Vaskivo]

Ok. So, even if everybody says "the universe exists", that doesn't it exists because not everybody _mean_ the same thing by saying those words, correct?

I can see the above. And that the assumptions and problems in languages shape our thoughts and view of reality (the universe).

But, like I said before, instead of tackling what the sentence _means_ you tackle it's tools and execution (language and it's use). I find it like facing a a physics equation and starting to question "what is lightspeed 'c'?", "why is it in m/s?", "why is it base 10?".

[ThomPete]

Scientific inquiry isn't the same as scientific I think that's what you are struggling with.

In philosophy, these are _the_ questions you ask because you are trying to go the foundation.

But even in science "what is lightspeed" and why is in m/s ARE relevant questions not to do the science but to establish the tools for doing the science.

[RikNieu]

So postmodernism is to ignore conventional context?

If it's absurd in regular situations, of what use is it in daily life?

[ThomPete]

That's not the job of philosophy.

I think you referring to the more popularized life-philosophy which is quite different.

Postmodernism doesn't ignore conventional context it inquires about the solidity of it. The job of philosophy is to ask questions not find answers.

[RikNieu]

> The job of philosophy is to ask questions not find answers

But the purpose of a question is to seek an answer. It's very definition implies this...

I dunno, on the surface this just appears like formalised intentional abstruseness to me. A formalised method to intentional miss the point.

But thanks for the replies, I appreciate it! This is rather interesting. Do you have some recommended links or books? I want to delve into this a bit more.

[resu_nimda]

Philosophy at its extremes often does become paradoxical or nonsensical. If you believe in materialism, you can't really believe in free will, yet you still have to go about your day "making decisions." But holding that philosophy still does have practical implications on those decisions, e.g. you probably won't be going to church or praying.

So, with postmodernism, you can go all the way down the rabbit hole as a philosophical exercise, and when you come back up and resume daily life, perhaps there are things you took for granted that you now begin to question. For example, a comment way up this chain asserted that "good art is better than bad art in ways that aren't purely relative." I used to believe that (Rembrandt must be better than a 3-year-old's scribble, right?), but now I don't believe that any art (music, film, etc) can be objectively argued to be better than any other, there is no good and bad art, only art that an individual likes or doesn't like.

Postmodernism to me actually leads toward a greater tolerance of other people and the state of the world. When you tear down the concepts of "right" and "wrong" - in the context of morals, ethics, human behavior - you realize they're as shaky and subjective as anything else. If you can't prove that your way is the right way, how can you tell someone else they're wrong?

[RikNieu]

> Postmodernism to me actually leads toward a greater tolerance of other people and the state of the world. When you tear down the concepts of "right" and "wrong" - in the context of morals, ethics, human behavior - you realize they're as shaky and subjective as anything else. If you can't prove that your way is the right way, how can you tell someone else they're wrong?

Not sure I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying we should be tolerate everyones behaviour because there's no right and wrong?

[resu_nimda]

Well if I adhere to what I just said, then I can't really speak to what people should be doing. I'm only describing my personal philosophy.

Do I completely tolerate, with no misgivings, every action taken by another human being, or every circumstance the world places me in? Not exactly. Somewhere there is a clash between abstract intellectual ideals and the reality of flesh and bones and animal brains. But, going back to your original question, I do think this line of thinking has had a real and practical impact on my daily life and the way I view things and interact with people.

[ThomPete]

Philosophical inquiry leads you wherever it leads you. We started looking for truth but the more we dug in we realized that that's not a very useful way to think about it and you can see how each successful and popular philosopher at least in the west basically keeps peeling off layers of their predecessor showing that what had previously been thought of as an objective foundation wasn't that objective when it came down to it.

Postmodernism was the philosophy that peeled of kind of the last layer which is the language itself and showed that the very tool we were using to express objective truths itself was in fact highly subjective and ridden with assumptions.

I can assure you the point is not to miss the point. Philosophy is for the most part not useful for everyday discussions as it tends to deal with things that often sound absurd (is it ok to kill babies if they cry) but it's important to understand that philosophy is informing other areas such as scientific methodology and to inform how to think about scientific discoveries. Falsification is a product of philosophical pondering. So is Kuhns Paradigm Shift.

With regards to books.

I would say that "Postmodern Theory: Critical Interrogations" is a pretty good place to start.

https://www.amazon.com/Postmodern-Theory-Interrogations-Stev...

Although he isn't considered a postmodernist per se as such I would also say that Kuhns "The structure of scientific revolution" gets you an interesting view into postmodernism without gunning for it. And it's about science which in itself is always interesting.

You should probably also read some Derrida or maybe start by watching the documentary about him he is pretty hard to read unless you are motivated. But you could start with "Speech and Phenomena" or of course Focult (but try and ignore the many political nuances)

And keep in mind postmodernism doesn't lead you to a conclusion it just shows you the limit of language. It's from that limit we must build structures while knowing they can always be broken down again.

Personally, it's helped me analyze the world differently and see past assumptions which allowed me to come up with better solutions for my clients. But it can also just be something that opens up your eyes for a different way to think about the world.