[beagle3]

> If you primarily work with Mac OS, Safari makes some sense, otherwise it makes no sense. Why do I never hear that complaint?

Yes, but I work on all three desktop OSes, and two mobile OSs; I picked Firefox, which I use everywhere except on iOS (where it does exist, but is not really Firefox, even if it does sync with the rest of the Firefoxen).

> Also, Edge on iOS and Android will soon have a built-in adblocker.

Cool. Firefox already does, and I can also use it on Linux and Mac.

> Have you ever looked at the privacy controls of Windows?

Yes, I have, and they are horrible; Have you?. I cannot stop telemetry or updates (unless LTSB which I can't even get, or enterprise which is too expensive to get for home), I can't get security updates without eveything else that Microsoft decides to bundle even if I did use LTSB or Enterprise. I have no way to verify exactly what Microsoft sends to their servers (and their description is incomplete and out of date, if you care to trust it).

The upgrade-to-windows-10 dark patterns are what you should consider when you think "windows control & privacy".

> Also the battery efficiency is significantly more than 10%,

Not in my experience of Edge vs Firefox, unless things have changed very dramatically in the last few months.

> and try find me a more versatile and user friendly alternative OS for pen capable 2-in-1s, that has better privacy controls.

"versatile" and "user friendly" are very subjective terms; I curse every minute I have to work with Windows after having used a consistently set up linux machine (and even MacOS is a little clunky in comparison). "pen capable 2-in-1" is a very specific requirement that means nothing to me and (I would guess) 95% of the users.

In my biased sample of the world, PCs have gone back to being work devices, and everything else is being done on the phone, with cloud sync bridging the gaps. I know a few people who bought a 2-in-1 but no one uses them except as a laptop except on very very rare occasions.

[pjmlp]

Surely not an Android nor ChromeOS user I would guess.

Where are the telemetry setting again?

[beagle3]

On android they are called "Google Play Services". I'm an incidental Android user, but last I tried removing them, that did stop the telemetry (and killed a lot of functionality, but my phone is still usable for my usage).

No idea about ChromeOS - my chromebook runs Arch ....

[NiveaGeForce]

> Cool. Firefox already does, and I can also use it on Linux and Mac.

But Chrome doesn't and I don't use Linux or Mac, but if I were primarily using a Mac, I would be using Safari. And If I were primarily using ChromeOS, I would be using Chrome.

> I have no way to verify exactly what Microsoft sends to their servers (and their description is incomplete and out of date, if you care to trust it).

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-view-and-manage-diagnosti...

> The upgrade-to-windows-10 dark patterns are what you should consider when you think "windows control & privacy".

How is this a dark pattern? Windows 7 and 8 also have telemetry, but they don't let you view it as conveniently as in Windows 10. Also the OS itself supports more privacy control against 3rd party apps, which should be the biggest concern.

> Not in my experience of Edge vs Firefox, unless things have changed very dramatically in the last few months.

Firefox is among the most resource heavy, on both Windows and Mac OS.

> In my biased sample of the world, PCs have gone back to being work devices, and everything else is being done on the phone, with cloud sync bridging the gaps. I know a few people who bought a 2-in-1 but no one uses them except as a laptop except on very very rare occasions.

I do all my work on a Surface Pro 2-in-1, more than 50% of the time in tablet mode. I also keep a close eye on ChromeOS and iPads, but unless they support most of my software and use-cases, I see no reason to switch from Windows anytime soon.

[beagle3]

> How is this a dark pattern? Windows 7 and 8 also have telemetry, but they don't let you view it as conveniently as in Windows 10.

Seriously? Were you not a windows user three years ago when it started? E.g. from [0] "The most famous example of digital bait and switch was Microsoft’s misguided approach to getting people to upgrade their computers to Windows 10."

Windows 7 and 8 are now just as bad, I do not in any way recommend using them if you value your privacy -- but at the very least, it's possible to turn off all telemetry, or at least it used to be possible when I last allowed updates on my Win7 (now it's firewalled off the world), by avoiding/removing specific updates. And according to the link you provided, "Although you can't completely prevent Microsoft from collecting diagnostic data, ...". Thanks, microsoft! but no thanks, even if you let me view what you are sending 3 years after you started snooping on me.

How exactly does the OS support "privacy controls" against 3rd party apps? Do you remember that its default setup was sharing your WiFi passwords with all of your facebook acquaintances?

> I do all my work on a Surface Pro 2-in-1, more than 50% of the time in tablet mode. I also keep a close eye on ChromeOS and iPads, but unless they support most of my software and use-cases, I see no reason to switch from Windows anytime soon.

As I said, according to my obviously biased sample, you are a niche market. YMMV.

[0] https://darkpatterns.org/types-of-dark-pattern/bait-and-swit...

[NiveaGeForce]

> The most famous example of digital bait and switch was Microsoft’s misguided approach to getting people to upgrade their computers to Windows 10."

They got a major upgrade for free with major improvements accross the board, they should be happy.

> And according to the link you provided, "Although you can't completely prevent Microsoft from collecting diagnostic data, ...". Thanks, microsoft! but no thanks, even if you let me view what you are sending 3 years after you started snooping on me.

The basic telemetry is just harmless diagnostic data that's on every modern mainstream OS. MS isn't snooping on you.

> How exactly does the OS support "privacy controls" against 3rd party apps?

https://pixelprivacy.com/resources/windows-privacy-settings/

And even more controls have been added with the recent Spring Update.

> Do you remember that its default setup was sharing your WiFi passwords with all of your facebook acquaintances?

Nonsense, this wasn't the default.

[beagle3]

I don't think this discussion is worth continuing as our basic definitions of decency, privacy, control and discourse are so far apart that it makes no sense.

You ask "how is this a dark pattern", I give citation and reference, and your response is "they should be happy?" Seriously?

> The basic telemetry is just harmless diagnostic data that's on every modern mainstream OS. MS isn't snooping on you.

The only modern mainstream OS in which there is no way to turn it off is Windows 10; you can on Android, you can on MacOS, it doesn't even exist on Linux.

Let me decide what's harmless and what isn't, and which updates I want and which I do not. MS is snooping on me, and its worth it a lot to them or they wouldn't be so adamant about doing it.

> https://pixelprivacy.com/resources/windows-privacy-settings/

Did you actually read what you link to? This does not apply to desktop apps. Which are, I guess, 99% of the apps people use out there? Maybe only 95% by now.

> what are you talking about?

https://gizmodo.com/why-the-hell-is-windows-10-sharing-my-wi...

Based on your previous replies, I anticipate an answer of "but they're your contacts, you probably wanted to do that, you should be happy". So, pre-emptively - no. I do not want my passwords shared by default with anyone.

GDPR encodes in law the fact that everything like that must be opt-in, including telemetry and stuff. Unfortunately, it only applies to websites and not to the operating system. But it should.

[pjmlp]

> GDPR encodes in law the fact that everything like that must be opt-in, including telemetry and stuff. Unfortunately, it only applies to websites and not to the operating system. But it should.

Yep, Android and ChromeOS would be the first to go.

[beagle3]

And that would make me very happy.

[kylealden]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that GDPR doesn't apply to operating systems.

You can control every facet of your diagnostics in Windows settings, see every bit of data collected about you (both locally and on the cloud), and delete it all.

[beagle3]

According to every article linked in this sub thread, (a) telemetry is opt out (not in) and (b) you cannot opt out completely, only partially; since telemetry is not actually required to provide service, that would be a GDPR violation, and if it is - I expect someone will take Microsoft to the cleaners over it. (As well as google for android’s data collection)

[NiveaGeForce]

A lot of FUD in that article.

> Ok, to clear a little bit of this so it’s not a complete freak out. This WiFi Sense has been known about for a while now and has been in various tech preview builds. Plus Windows Phone. Second thing is that WiFi networks are not shared by default. I just checked this on my Surface Pro 3. The WiFi Sense service is indeed enabled by default, but you must specifically pick which of your saved networks get shared. Non of your saved WiFi networks are shared automatically without your knowledge. When you connect to a new network, there will be a check box you can select to share the network after connecting. It is not checked by default. The Outlook, Skype, and Facebook friends are checked by default, but that only means that they are enabled for sharing. You still have to pick which networks are shared first. Also WiFi Sense needs you to grant it permission your Facebook first before any sharing takes place. I hope this clears some of this up a bit. The article made it seem like this is a huge deal to freak out about when it’s really not.

[beagle3]

Not sure what you are quoting from (you seem to quote but it's not from the article listed).

It was changed in later updates, but as rolled out originally, it most definitely shared wifi networks unexpectedly in some configuration (perhpas only on upgrades, not on new installs, I don't remember the exact details -- but there was a wifi breach where I worked at the time in which wifisense turned out to be the culprit without anyone explicitly enabling it). See [0]. Microsoft is playing loose with your data, and has been for the past 5 years at the very least. You may not care, but I do, and your refusal to accept that is simple baffling.

[0] https://threatpost.com/microsoft-quietly-kills-controversial...