[cletus]

So this is the result of several factors that are at odds with each other.

1. There is no per-country quota on H1Bs

2. There is a per-country quota on EB-1/2/3 GCs

3. And this is crux of the problem: H1Bs are issued indiscriminately, most problematically to so-called bodyshops.

There are various proposals to fix the immigration backlog. There's one bill that would get rid of per-country quotas. I wonder what that would do to the backlog of everyone. I kind of see this one as a nonstarter.

Bizarrely, it's the current (otherwise abhorrent) administration that is the first to even talk about fixing the real problem, which is (3). H1Bs are a lottery now. When the likes of FAAMG companies can't hire people because the likes of Infosys and Tata are flooding applications for people who will essentially become indentured servants, that's a problem.

Infosys settled a visa fraud case with the US government several years ago including a payment of millions of dollars. How exactly are they still able to apply for visas?

There are problems with ranking applicants based on salary (or total compensation) as the one proposal would do. This would potentially drown out lower-paid STEM fields that have legitimate need with FAAMG SWEs. Then again... that's still probably better than the current system.

People have also complained "well you can't hire graduates if you rank on salary". That's true. But at the same time, are newly minted college graduates fulfilling unsatisfied demand for specialty occupation? Or just being used to lower labour costs?

[throwaway12122]

Every time the topic of H1B comes up, people bring up Infosys. Why is that? Why is nobody talking about the 100 thousand Indian students who come to US every year? Who is employing them? These students are one of the primary abusers of the H1B system. They go through lengths to stay in US. They will settle for low salary so that they don't have to leave the country. Literally every scam I saw in H1B is from body shops in US, not the Indian companies. Indian companies do abuse it, by forcing the employees to sign a bond that if they want to resign, they have to come back to India and serve a 3 months notice (I know a Indian arm of an American product company who is top 1 or 2 in what they do with a 12 months notice policy by the way) or pay 5-10 lakhs Indian rupee if they want their experience certificate. And the pay offered is also only half or less of what they charge the customer.

>IT industry body Nasscom on Monday came out in defence of its members TCS and Infosys, saying the two accounted for only 7,504—8.8%—of the approved H1B visas in 2014-15.

https://www.livemint.com/Industry/pHkRcTtIoKd8MkTkBNdtSN/Inf...

[abc_lisper]

> Every time the topic of H1B comes up, people bring up Infosys. Why is that?

They must be partial to Infosys. I mean, what did it do. https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.asp...

> These students are one of the primary abusers of the H1B system.

Right, the startups in bay area, good groups at Apples, Googles and Facebooks of the world are filled with people from Infosys ;)

>Literally every scam I saw in H1B is from body shops in US

That's partially true; I will let it slide

I understand you are frustrated, but you are barking up the wrong tree. The trouble is the easy jobs i.e, low-skilled in high-tech, are already filled. For example, see clouts of Infosys employees in some US companies. These days, people have two options, be really good at what they do, or find a clout to stick to. May be you had a hard time sticking to the Infosys clout(I am not surprised, given that you like to think). Don't blame it on others. If anything, most of the technically competent desi people in US have a US degree.

[mavelikara]

> If anything, most of the technically competent desi people in US have a US degree.

What I understood GP to be saying is that "most desi people in US having a US degree are technically incompetent".

Both these view points are not incompatible, and true in my experience.

[abc_lisper]

Good point!

[throwaway12122]

>They must be partial to Infosys. I mean, what did it do. https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.asp....

I am not quite sure if LCA is an accurate metric of visa count. For example, I had my visa renewed 3 times so far. Every time, they filed for an LCA. I had to relocate one time. For that also, an LCA was filed. Then another one for my green card PERM or I-140 stage. People who come from India and work for TCS, Infosys etc end up relocating more often. Also, unlike American companies, visas are given to Indian companies only for 1-2 years and sometimes even less (American companies usually get for 3 years). Further, 25405 number doesn't mean they all were deputed from India. Indian companies hire a lot from US. They actually prefer hiring these students because they are desperate for a visa and are willing to settle for a lower salary. If they have to bring someone from India, they have to file the h1b application, hope they get into lottery and then only they can even think of putting them in a project. Most clients won't even want to wait that long unless they had been working on that project for a while and has acquired good knowledge. Where as for students, they can hire them, and file for h1b in the next few months (students get upto 18 months of something called OPT that allows them to work without h1b). This is precisely what's happening in my company. Same I heard is the case for Infosys. And these companies also hire people who are in the green card queue.

>Right, the startups in bay area, good groups at Apples, Googles and Facebooks of the world are filled with people from Infosys ;)

100 thousand Indian students come to US every year. How many of them end up working in these companies? Your own list shows less than 15k.

Among the deputed ones from India, the good ones never stay in the likes of Infosys. While I don't know anybody who went to Google or Facebook, I know a few who jumped from these Indian consultancies to Amazon, Intel and few other Silicon Valley companies. So, I don't think its fair to dismiss a person working for an Indian consultancy company as incompetent. My friend in Infosys was saying recently that a lot of people are joining Amazon and a few other companies like them these days. They can't be stupid if they are getting hired in these companies, right?

Also, I was recently talking to 2 of my friends from Infosys on 2 separate occasions. Both said there teams were trying to hire people locally (Americans), and both had the same opinion as you about the people who came for interviews about skills and competency.

> If anything, most of the technically competent desi people in US have a US degree.

I actually developed a bad opinion of them based on their performance in my own company. People who end up in good colleges probably are good. But those who come from tier 2 and lower colleges are not going to be good just because they studied in a US college.

[abc_lisper]

> I am not quite sure if LCA is an accurate metric of visa count. For example, I had my visa renewed 3 times so far. Every time, they filed for an LCA

You can ignore the GC LCA, because most companies do it too, and companies like Google, Facebook and Apple at a higher rate. Even if Infosys applies twice per three years for a candidate's H-1, it stands at the top of that list.

> 100 thousand Indian students come to US every year. How many of them end up working in these companies? Your own list shows less than 15k.

And I am seeing very few people without a US degree in that 15k.

> Further, 25405 number doesn't mean they all were deputed from India. Indian companies hire a lot from US.

What is the point here? So does every other company.

> Both said there teams were trying to hire people locally (Americans)

It is a legal requirement.

> I actually developed a bad opinion of them based on their performance in my own company

Actually me too. I have worked with cliques from hell, coming from Infosys (mostly), but also Wipro and like. 10 people do the work of 1 person, with the end result being a mess.

Anecdotes aside, I don't know why you are fighting along Infosys here. The numbers are Facts. Also, not everybody in Infosys (US) is going through the same struggle you are. I am sorry you are going through this and I empathize with you, as I had some personal experience in that regard. I can also tell you this, this uncertainty will pass, but the after-effects will last for a while. Having a good social circle helps in mitigating it.

[throwaway12122]

>What is the point here? So does every other company.

What I was trying to point out is that when people talk about Infosys, they are referring to the people who are deputed from India. Or at least thats what I thought. So, when some one says 25405 people got LCA, a person who is not familiar with these things would think that Infosys brings that many people from India every year, and that Infosys is using up 25405 of the 60k or 80k visas to bring new people. They may not realize that this number also includes visa renewals, relocations, and hires from US, and that renewals and relocations do not count towards the 60k limit. If the Nasscom quote below is to be believed, its around 4000.

>IT industry body Nasscom on Monday came out in defence of its members TCS and Infosys, saying the two accounted for only 7,504—8.8%—of the approved H1B visas in 2014-15.

http://www.thehindu.com/business/Industry/tcs-infosys-accoun...

>Both said there teams were trying to hire people locally (Americans) >It is a legal requirement.

I was trying to say that just like how you are saying people in Infosys are bad, the Infosys people who work in interviewing Americans are saying the candidates they get are not as good as the Indians! Everyone thinks others are stupid I guess.

>as I had some personal experience in that regard.

I thought you were an American!

> I can also tell you this, this uncertainty will pass.

Thank you. I hope so too.

[mehrdada]

+1 This is the correct analysis of the article with sensational title. Of all the problems the immigration system has, this is probably one that is least fundamental and the bill would solve basically zero problems for the nation and is simply a political question of who gets to win a limited resource between various foreign players.

The entire premise of "limiting immigration" is discrimination based on a binary national origin/citizenship (i.e. you happened to be one of us or not) so it is comically laughable to talk about how to make such system "fair" without opening it to everyone, which has practical issues. Immigration is an inherently political mechanism constructed as a result of amalgamation of various underlying game theoretic balances and trade-offs over the years between nation states. It's important to note that you cannot divorce the individuals from their own governments/resource allocation when thinking about that.

[badminton1]

Infosys and Tata are far worse than that.

They request power of attorney from employees, file their tax returns on their behalf and steal their tax return money. Some employees do not receive their full wage.

In paper they meet H-1B salary requirements but in practice they don't.

They are not only in violation of immigration law but labor law as well.

[throwaway12122]

This is no way correct. The employees file their own returns just like any other American. And they get paid the full salary mentioned in the offer letter they received when they were deputed.

The only "violation" I know these companies do is that they make the employee sign a bond that they have to come back to India and give a 3 months notice period if they want to resign while in US. And this is not just Indian companies. I was surprised to learn recently that the Indian division of an American product company (top 1 or 2 in the world in what they do) has a 12 months notice period with around 10 lakh rupees bond. Compared to that, Indian companies are less evil.

Another thing the Indian companies do is make you work on less desirable projects or otherwise you have to go back to India. And they don't treat their employees the same way a product company in America would do. They see us more or less as "you should be grateful to us that we gave you chance to come to US".

[badminton1]

It is correct because there are lawsuits and settlements involved. Maybe it is no longer the case but it has happened.