[Consultant32452]

>but our current welfare system is better than nothing.

I feel like you're trying to have it both ways. On one hand you say that our current welfare system simply subsidizes shareholders. You seem to believe that if we phased out welfare that the poor would wind up in the same place they are today because they would demand higher wages. In other words, it provides no benefit to the well-being of the poor. And yet you say it's better than nothing. How can that be?

[lovich]

You're making jumps again. Shareholders and the poor are two subsets of society. Its possible for wealth to be moved from society as a whole to the shareholders and still benefit the poor, without taking money from the poor to do so.

I don't think the poor as a group would end up in the same place. I believe the wages would end up rising but less people overall would be employed. If you remove welfare then the people who end up without a job are going to be without anything and homeless/starve to death. The amount of time it would take for the new equilibrium to be met would also cause a lot of pain and suffering in the interim.

[Consultant32452]

>I believe the wages would end up rising but less people overall would be employed.

Interesting, what are your thoughts on the minimum wage?

>If you remove welfare then the people who end up without a job are going to be without anything and homeless/starve to death.

I feel like if your options are working or death, there will be many more people working, not less as you suggested above. But I also think the imagery of people starving to death is unrealistic. Over 70% of the world's population lives on less than $10/day. The American poor is very wealthy by global standards and they have a loooong way down to go before they start starving to death. The worst case scenario of the American poor losing welfare while simultaneously somehow not being able to demand higher wages looks more like the American poor inching ever so slightly closer to the global average lifestyle than starving to death. I don't want that situation any more than you do, but let's not be overly colorful in our language.

I understand why UBI is more economically efficient than our current welfare systems. Anything that moves towards giving the poor money they can spend on whatever they want is a bonus in my opinion. I'd start with Medicare and Medicaid. Instead of paying directly for healthcare we should just cut a check to the elderly/poor and let them spend those funds on whatever they wish. However, I don't understand why you feel it would behave differently than welfare with respect to its "subsidizing the shareholder class." Unless you expect UBI to be high enough so that nobody would have to work, and then I'm not sure how the economy doesn't collapse on itself with so few people doing work and so few taxpayers.