[chiefalchemist]

It sounds reasonable, but I get lost on the idea that there wasn't enough land to go around. Small populations and plenty of land / resources. Why fight?

That said, would it be (semi) safe to presume that the most fittest survived, and those likely being the most (for lack of a better term) ruthless? That is, the gene pool (on the male side) leaned towards violence (as a means of survival). That in turn served as the foundation of white Western Europe repeatedly exerting itself as a superior culture.

And at the extremes, this helps explains serial killers, mass murders, etc. That is, today's violence was yesterday's survival skills. Some of those genes remain in the gene pool. At least in theory, yes?

[nyolfen]

>That is, the gene pool (on the male side) leaned towards violence (as a means of survival). That in turn served as the foundation of white Western Europe repeatedly exerting itself as a superior culture.

this replacement (sedentary agriculturalists killing/pushing out hunter-gatherers) happened everywhere in the world, not just 'white western europe'

[bilbo0s]

Just eye-balling, but it does seem as though these drops in Y-diversity were far less extreme outside of europe and the mideast region.

That said, chiefalchemist is jumping to conclusions not supported by the data in the papers when he offers his conjectures on violence etc. The only thing we can really conclude with authority based on this data is that whatever happened, more of it happened in europe and the mideast.

[chiefalchemist]

> From the article: "It appears over the course of the next 2,000 years, the Old World male population plummeted to one-twentieth of what it had been beforehand"

With that said, let me rephrase then...the "rise" of the "violence gene profile":

1) Was more effective in some parts of the world then in others.

2) That profile is still with us today. Perhaps not as dominant but none rhe less not gone.

3) We may think we're a peace loving species but our gene pool says other wise.

Again, yesterday's "winning effort" is today's murder. Today's mental health issues arw yesterday's hero (e.g., an unfiltered willingness to kill).

We can talk about being rational, intelligent, etc. but the fact is we still have a gene pool that historically says otherwise.

[nyolfen]

>it does seem as though these drops in Y-diversity were far less extreme outside of europe and the mideast region.

???

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeoJ3lXWsAAfbvF.jpg

[barry-cotter]

In the long run there is never enough of any resource to go round. The population expands until there’s just barely enough, overshoots, collapses and then does it again and again or dies off. That’s the Malthusian trap.

The collapse of Y chromosome diversity around the transition to agriculture and civilisation is far from being exclusive to white or European culture. It happened in every human population that took up agriculture, to greater and lesser extent.

Violence is absolutely part of human nature. Serial killers are probably pathological but mass murder is definitely within normal human behaviour. The Mongols were less especially brutal than especially organised, ditto for the Nazis at a later date.

Kill everybody and take their land is more or less what happened to both the Neanderthals and the first H. Sapiens in Europe. Kill all the men is practically a humanitarian innovation.

[chiefalchemist]

"Violence is absolutely part of human nature. Serial killers are probably pathological but mass murder is definitely within normal human behaviour. The Mongols were less especially brutal than especially organised, ditto for the Nazis at a later date.

Kill everybody and take their land is more or less what happened to both the Neanderthals and the first H. Sapiens in Europe. Kill all the men is practically a humanitarian innovation."

That's the crux of my point. My sense is there's a perception that humans are "highly advanced" and that (e.g.) people with violent tendencies are highly "abnormal" and should - in extreme cases - be put to death.

The irony being their genes are what saved the species in previous generations. But today those genes are not advantageous.

[Spooky23]

Serial killers are dysfunctional people, acting more instinctually.

Systematic violence is ultimately very rational. Your worst enemy is always your neighbor or a trespasser. Agriculture requires ownership of land, so hunters are always the enemy of the farmer.