[loggedinmyphone]

All of these instances of violence are regrettable. The aims of the American War of Independence and the Civil War almost certainly could have been achieved without firing a shot. The Nazi regime could have been prevented if the victors of the first World War hadn't imposed harsh punitive measures to destroy the German economy.

[lsc]

>The aims of the American War of Independence and the Civil War almost certainly could have been achieved without firing a shot.

Maybe? I mean, the war of independence is a little different... clearly, we were not a real threat to the British; we just needed to be seen to be resisting, without getting crushed, until the war with France heated up enough that the British couldn't spare the troops to keep us down. from that perspective? it was almost a minimal violence kind of war. The "Fabian strategy" - which only worked against an army as good at logistics as the British because they were also fighting a serious war with France at the time. Really, we needed to remain a threat, but except for proving that we could inflict such damage, one could argue that the actual violence wasn't super necessary.

The ACW, on the other hand, I... kinda don't think there was a peaceful resolution there. I mean, it wasn't like the southerners were arguing for a British style 'emancipation with compensation to the former owners' and the war was just haggling over the price. The Confederacy pretty much immediately rebelled after it was clear that we'd have an abolitionist-leaning president... long before any actual abolitionistic action was taken, long before it was clear that such action would be taken.

I kinda don't see how the ACW could have been avoided or made less violent. By advanced nation standards of the time, we were pretty far behind on the abolition schedule already, and while the slaughter of the ACW was shocking, so was slavery.

[walshemj]

The AWI could have been avoided the UK kept shooting its self in the foot if you avoid the AWI its interesting what happens does the USA take the same route Canada did?

If say the American colonies where given all the rights UK citizens under the same legal system had then Somerset v Stewart becomes interesting as that case outlawed chattel slavery in the UK in 1772.

[loggedinmyphone]

I don't think the South loved owning slaves as much as they found it an expedient economic model, which was less true in the North. So I believe they could have been moved by economic pressure. We can't know for sure, but we can say there's more than one way to skin a cat and if you can do it without getting blood on the walls so much the better.

[lsc]

>I don't think the South loved owning slaves as much as they found it an expedient economic model

The economic model is strong in some ways; the value of all the slaves in the south, as I understand it, was greater than the value of all the farmland in the south.

There are weaknesses in the economic model, too, though. Nobody is saying that the southern enlisted man was hesitant to fight, and few of the enlisted (as opposed to officers) owned slaves.

For that matter, your average enlisted southerner would probably have been significantly better off, economically speaking, without slavery, just because if you are trying to sell your own labor, it's significantly more difficult to do so when you are competing with literal slaves.

So while you can use the economic model to explain the behavior of the southern elite, the economic model does not explain why the average southerner fought.

[maxerickson]

A different resolution to slavery in the US almost certainly would have involved the ongoing deaths of slaves. So just less violence.

(even one that somehow rapidly ended slavery without slave owners waging war)

[loggedinmyphone]

Yes, less violence is the goal.

[anigbrowl]

It might be your goal, but it's not everyone else's. You don't get to tell people they can't have freedom because it might involve more violence than leaving them in captivity.

[loggedinmyphone]

Neither the notions of nonviolence nor autonomy are absolutes. We always have to struggle to make good choices.

[lsc]

>The Nazi regime could have been prevented if the victors of the first World War hadn't imposed harsh punitive measures to destroy the German economy.

I think you could make just as strong an argument that the Nazi regime would not have lasted long if those harsh punitive measures were actually enforced. I mean, if you have a strongman leader, the best thing for him is an enemy who snarls real good, but who backs down immediately upon confrontation.

I think the truth of the matter is that after world war one, the allies didn't have the political will to properly enforce the sanctions or to expend the money and effort for a marshal plan type response. I think that's why we got what we did, harsh punitive measures that were ignored whenever Germany pushed on them. - but I think that's also the best case for an expanding fascistic government... It sure looked, to the non-jewish german people, that every time Hitler "stood up for them" hitler got what they wanted. It was like the allies set up a paper tiger for Hitler to look strong against.

I'm not saying that's what should have been done, just that the "the Nazis would have not risen if there weren't punitive measures" and "The Nazis would not have held on to power if those punitive measures were actually enforced" are counterfactuals; theories about what could have been. I argue that there is just as much evidence for my theory as yours.

[loggedinmyphone]

I think there were multiple ways Nazism could have been prevented or dealt with. It's just regrettable that it ended in so much violence. Probably what happened was neither the best nor the worst conceivable outcome.

[SimbaOnSteroids]

The second world war resulting from the first world war's punitive damages is largely a myth propagated by the Nazi's on their rise to power. In actuallity the second world war was a result of piss-poor monetary and fiscal policy combined with the rise of fascism across Europe. AskHistorians thread that talks about this and cites their sources https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/89u5t9/in_a_...