[markvangulik]

Right, and that’s why Avail is nothing like that. Kind of the opposite when it gets down to it...

Cheesy, closed languages like C forgot that exponentiation was even a thing, or complex numbers. If you shift over to using C++’s “clevernesses”, you still don’t get exponentiation, because the traditional caret symbol is already used for exclusive-or, which has no sensible ASCII punctuation.

As for someone’s distant comment that Lisp has been used to create languages for years... sure, if the language you wanted was parenthesized lists with keywords inside the left parenthesis. Which is just Lisp with a few more operations and macros. Yuck.

[lispm]

A few languages implemented in Lisp: C, Pascal, Ada, Prolog, Python, JavaScript, Fortran, Haskell, ML, ... none of that had parenthesized lists...

[kazinator]

All those and SHRDLU.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17156049

[markvangulik]

“Implemented in” is the key. If you want, say, a C compiler written in Lisp, you end up writing a compiler. If you want a Haskell compiler written in Lisp, you write another compiler.

If you want Avail to include all of C, you define C language capability in an Avail module and subtract the rest. Then your C program is also an Avail program, so you have the same tool chain you had with core Avail (still lacking, but getting there), you have dynamic optimizing compilation to JVM (and eventually native, perhaps), and you have a program that not only interoperates with programs written in other dialects, but allows direct connection between them. Like if you want Avail exceptions with your C code, you import exceptions and just use them. You don’t build them over and over again for each language. And if you want to support closures in your C, you’d probably just remove the limitation that treated the closures of Avail as contextless C functions. Similarly for backtracking, universal serialization, and sensible module dependencies (maybe call it #import, versus the horrible textual #include mess of C).

And finally, if you want your existing vanilla C code to be able to call “out” efficiently to some FORTRAN or Python code, you no longer have an impedance mismatch. Define those dialects as Avail, and you’ll have real garbage collection, multiplexed lightweight threads (fibers), dynamic optimization, and objects and functions that are reasonably compatible between these dialects.

[markvangulik]

As for SHRDLU, it was built atop a “language”, PROGRAMMAR, if I recall, which was really a big ball of Lisp, so the syntax was basically tons of parentheses with keywords inside the left one. But given the available languages, memory, and speed of that time, it was amazing that even a library-ish extension of Lisp could come into play.

Note that embedding PROGRAMMAR inside Lisp is exactly the kind of thing we’re doing with Avail… it’s just that the base metarules are more articulate for that sort of thing.

PROGRAMMAR rewritten today in Avail wouldn’t look at all like Lisp — thank goodness. But if you implemented that language via a compiler, you would have the limitations of the compiler technology constantly getting in the way of the linguistic forms you’re trying to express. For example, having to decide on a linear ranking of precedence levels for every operation, even if they couldn’t ever appear next to each other due to type or linguistic constraints.

Even C++ requires custom lexing tweaks because of spurious “>>” tokens in nested templates… and special backtracking rules to distinguish function definitions from stack object creation. But those bypasses aren’t readily usable in the available parsing tools. Avail’s compiling scheme is decades beyond that.