[throwaway37585]

> Whats complicated about an iteration

What’s complicated about a recursion?

> If you see problems, its because something is modifying it between runs, but that wasn't a fault of the iterative strategy, it was the fault of a bad programmer.

> Conversely, you must always make sure the stopping condition and all base cases are met during recursion.

You seem to be applying a double standard here.

> Forget one corner base case and you got a rare production bug.

Base cases are usually much easier to reason about.

[davidgay]

> > Whats complicated about an iteration

> What’s complicated about a recursion?

Especially as iteration is just a special case of recursion :)

[blackflame7000]

Then why does NASA consider it unsafe for mission critical code?

How about unknown potential stack size?

How about factoring a large number with recursion?

Everything recursive can be transformed to iterative and yea sometimes it’s not as sexy but neither is a helmet

https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/3dnsh1/nasas_t...

[throwaway37585]

> Then why does NASA consider it unsafe for mission critical code?

They also proscribe unbounded iterations (point 2). In any case, NASA’s guidelines for mission-critical code are not necessarily good guidelines for general software engineering, given the constraints involved.

It’s also worth noting that recursive solutions are probably more amenable to static analysis and automated theorem proving.

> How about unknown potential stack size?

If stack size is a problem, try an iterative solution.

> How about factoring a large number with recursion?

Go with iteration.

You keep editing your answer to add more cases where iteration is the way to go. I’m not disputing there are use cases where iteration is appropriate.

[danmg]

> Then why does NASA consider it unsafe for mission critical code?

More like they're using an old Fortran 77 environment which doesn't support recursive functions.

[dahart]

No that's incorrect. Their rules are C guidelines, and they are easy to Google. You might want to do that before making assumptions.

NASA's rules, the ones being referenced above, are designed for safety. They require code to be easy to statically analyze and to have absolutely predictable behavior.

Also to be avoided: memory allocation, unbounded loops, function pointers, preprocessor macros.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_10:_Rules_for_Dev...

[danmg]

Most of the numerical code they're going to use is in Fortran, and interlanguage calling convention and the runtime might pose a problem.

This is in addition to not using recursive functions being pretty standard in anything embedded. Early computers and embedded systems had very limited stack space or had calling conventions that made recursion impossible.

[dahart]

> Most of the numerical code they're going to use is in Fortran, and interlanguage calling convention and the runtime might pose a problem.

The rationale they used for these rules was written down. It has nothing to do with Fortran. I've offered links that you can read. You're making more assumptions. If there's C-to-Fortran calling at all, then recursion presents zero extra difficulty. Once you can make any function call, you can make all function calls.

> This is in addition to not using recursive functions being pretty standard in anything embedded.

It's true that for small embedded devices, recursion is not used often. It's also true that function pointers and heap allocations and unbounded loops are generally avoided too. Though, often main() in an embed is a white(true){} loop. I wouldn't be surprised to see that at NASA.

One could argue that all of these 10 NASA rules represent some standard practice in embedded code and/or some degree of common sense. They're not claiming to be new or non-standard or unintuitive or innovative; they simply wrote down what people agreed are best practices.

[throwaway344534]

More like they were using C, saw the prospect of unbounded stack calls unreasonable with a computer with limited ram and banned recursion. Oh wait that's exactly what happened because iteration is safer than recursion.

[dahart]

Iteration is not inherently safer than recursion. NASA also banned while(true) iteration. The important part is "fixed upper bounds".

"Give all loops a fixed upper bound. It must be trivially possible for a checking tool to prove statically that the loop cannot exceed a preset upper bound on the number of iterations. If a tool cannot prove the loop bound statically, the rule is considered violated."

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ad40/26510beb1a309902704583...

[monocasa]

The static analysis tools have a harder time parsing the upper bounds on recursive functions, and so do the engineers doing the code reviews for similar reasons.

This isn't just a NASA thing. Pretty much any embedded coding standard says the same thing. The JSF C++ standard, and MISRA-C I know both do as well, just off the top of my head.

[jacquesm]

That's a restriction on the environment which has absolutely nothing to do with how readable a certain piece of code is. In fact it argues the opposite: we force you to use a less readable version of your code because the elegant one may be easier to read but it may have negative consequences due to implementation details.

That's a really good trade-off for them but it does not necessarily help readability.

[blackflame7000]

But then your code is not portable because it is now susceptible to arbitrary stack depth changes blowing up your program. None of your arguments make sense when compared with the overwhelmingly superior iterative approach. Recursion is the same as iteration + downsides. I mean seriously name the last time you had a stack overflow and weren't doing recursion? That's an entire class of bug introduced or eliminated by a simple design decision. That's how you write superior code for now and in the future.

You shouldn't have to know about the implementation when writing portable code. If you introduce recursion, you now need to worry about implementation since the machine max stack size is now an issue and you've broken the abstraction. And what exactly did you gain that outweigh's the cons?

[jacquesm]

You are confusing implementation of a language with readability. And I honestly don't remember the last time I had a stack overflow, there is something known as tail-call optimization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_call

[pvg]

Then why does NASA consider it unsafe for mission critical code?

You started with the assertion iterative implementations were more intuitive and easier to read so this is a bit of goalpoast-moving. Write an iterative pseudocode DFS or quicksort. How 'intuitive' does that look?

[blackflame7000]

I'm saying that there are so many downsides both obvious and sneaky associated with recursion that it makes almost no sense to use when the iterative approach is usually safer, doesn't have the headache of unbounded stack calls, and can be more easily parallelized with things like OpenMP

[pvg]

That's what you are saying now, this is what you were saying before:

" I'm willing to bet most people if shown 10 recursive and 10 iterative solutions to the same problems would admit the iterative approach is more intuitive. "

Now you are at NASA sending probes to asteroid Weasel 39812.