[albutr]

To be honest I know nothing about law enforcement in the EU, but the one thing I have heard about in recent memory is that guy who made a video of his girlfriend's dog saluting hitler, and was subsequently tried for a hate crime, convicted, and was charged with a pretty hefty 800 GBP fine after being found in violation of the Communications Act of 2003[1]. Seems like a pretty poor example of principles-based regulation. Maybe it's just an outlier though, idk.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Meechan

[CiaranMcNulty]

The actual ruling was that him saying 'Gas the Jews' tens of times during the video was calculated to offend, rather than the dog thing

[albutr]

Oh okay, I actually misremembered what I had seen, I thought it was just the saluting thing. I just checked the original again[1], and that being said I still don't see how this isn't a ruling that is overblown; he's saying "wanna gas the jews" in a playful way to his dog over and over, and the dog responds when this is said.

The ruling was that this was a hate crime, because it was "menacing, anti-Semitic and racist". I have trouble seeing how a Nazi pug that responds to "gas the jews" is anything other than silly bit of absurd comedy. I can't realistically see this video actually advancing any legitimate hatred, or having any negative consequences other than some people laughing at how silly it is, and some people just thinking it's kind of stupid.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rdWlVyN9es

[jacquesm]

At a guess you didn't have any family and you don't know anybody that has family that ended up in a gas chamber?

[albutr]

I know several people who fit that criterion. I didn't say it wasn't rude, crass, impolite, or ignorant. I said that I don't think it counts as a hate crime, and that it doesn't fit the criterion for "menacing" society. How many people do you think fear for their personal safety because of that pug?

For what it's worth, I grew up in a town that was roughly half jewish, reflected in my circle of friends. When I was younger, extremely crass jokes that made light of historical tragedies were made at everyones expense, including ones that historically affected my family. It was clear that the intent of these was not to instill terror or provoke hatred. It was more of a pissing contest, to see who could say the most absurdly offensive thing.

Were these the types of situations where we should have had more sensitivity to the real weight of these tragedies? Sure.

Were these hate crimes? Absolutely not. When someone commits a hate crime against you, you probably wouldn't regularly invite them over to your house for the next several years...

[jacquesm]

> I said that I don't think it counts as a hate crime

That's curious given your background. I know a couple of people that still have the tattoos on their arms and one guy who literally has no family at all and it pains me to see that people think that this is just a matter of bad taste. "Gas the Jews" is not a joke, my sense of humor is pretty broad but it does not stretch that far.

[albutr]

To be clear, I'm not arguing that it wasn't a horrible atrocity that completely destroyed many peoples lives, and and I'm not arguing that the genocide itself was in any way funny. The joke isn't that the event itself is funny, it's the absurdity of context in which the statement is being made that's funny.

I can't even count the number of comedy central stand-up specials I've seen that casually make jokes about absolutely horrific things that destroy lives. Jokes that play on children dying, slavery, the holocaust, rape, murder, pedophilia, torture, etc. I guarantee you that both you and I both know someone (or are one person removed, at most) that has had their lives destroyed by one of these things, or something of a similar caliber. Does that mean that none if these jokes can be funny, in any context? If so, I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find a single comedy special that counts as funny; virtually every comedy special I've seen makes light of one of these horrific things in some way.

[Mirioron]

I have family that suffered at the hands of communists. Many were deported and exiled, some were sent to gulags. Some of them made it back, some died there, because the conditions in Siberia were horrible. Do you think it would be reasonable to start fining or jailing people who make jokes about "being sent to the gulag"?

I think you're simply appealing to emotion here to justify an unjust ruling and an unjust law.

I think the person you're replying to has a point in saying that some laws in Europe are pretty ridiculous. However, the difference is that that's a local law in the UK and not one that affects the entirety of Europe. Nor is it a widespread law in other European countries.

[_Tev]

Who is talking about jailing, the guy just got a fine. It was pretty big (still less than one paycheck, no?), but if that is the worst case you can find, I think you can make fun of anything.

And fwiw I do think Europe is oversensitive about Nazis-related stuff. But for good reasons.