[forapurpose]

There's no basis offered for any of the parent. Some things are obviously false:

> oil ... That's what ww1 and ww2 was fought over.

> Certain nations, like the US, don't have to work with anyone

> expand the US to include the anglo-nations ( Canada, Australia, etc )

etc.

These are arguments of white christian nationalists, who, as Orwell pointed out about nationalists in general, have no interest in reality, only justifying their hateful cause. They ignore the incredible, outrageous evil of Nazism, the universality and priority of human rights and freedom, basic economic reality, and the predictable destruction that comes with nationalism.

The American-led world order since WWII has led to an expansion of freedom and prosperity orders of magnitude beyond anything else in human history. It also embodies a just and fair way of managing international affairs, through law and democracy rather than the undemocratic system of the strong forcing the weak (it has a long a way to go, but it has come a very long way since WWII). A person must really embrace hate in order to give that up for nationalism, racism, and the destruction that inevitably follows, a return to pre-WWII or even pre-WWI. I suspect many of the white christian nationalists take that peace and prosperity for granted; they don't realize it was constructed by the survivors of WWII, who knew far more of nationalism and the world without a rules-driven world order.

[andrepd]

>The American-led world order since WWII has led to an expansion of freedom and prosperity [...] It also embodies a just and fair way of managing international affairs, through law and democracy rather than the undemocratic system of the strong forcing the weak.

Wow... The people in Guatemala [1], Iran [2], Chile [3], Timor [4], and dozens other places will disagree with you. The will of the people stamped down by the boot of American might and imperialism, for the benefit of themselves: for the maintenance of their supreme place in the world on the back of neocolonialist exploitation of weaker countries. Is this not the picture of "undemocratic system of the strong forcing the weak"? Let's not forget the odious bootlicking of Saudi princes, for instance, and their positively medieval rule, for their economic favour.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27%C3%A...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._intervention_in_Chile#The...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor_genocide

[forapurpose]

> The people in Guatemala [1], Iran [2], Chile [3], Timor [4], and dozens other places ...

Agreed, and I considered whether to include that part of the story. On one hand, every HN comment can be criticized for leaving out details - we always can write more; these aren't dissertations or books, and each comment needs to draw the line somewhere. On the other, I probably should have mentioned that side of it.

But with that issue in mind, I was careful to write something that didn't contradict the parent's point. I said the expansion of freedom and prosperity have been unprecedented, which is true. It should be even more, including for the people of the places mentioned above, but it still has been unprecedented. I also wrote that the international order "embodies a just and fair way of managing international affairs, through law and democracy"; I was careful not to say it implemented those things are actually is democratic; it's not nearly that. But the UN, alongside the leading country actively promoting democracy and liberty is a huge step forward compared to human history, as are other international organizations and structures. There is a very long way to do, and every person that has suffered in those places and does suffer today deserves justice; we have a lot of work to do.

[forapurpose]

Wow, do I need to proofread ... yikes. Sorry to any readers.

[dctoedt]

The incidents you cite are indeed deeply regrettable and even shameful. But quaere whether you're overweighting them.

[andrepd]

They're more than incidents, they're the intentional modus operandi of the USA.