[eklavya]

Boy oh boy if only I could make more people read this. So many people in India just conflate patriotism with nationalism and it has become a fashion to brand any patriotic talk as "nationalistic". And they assume they are right because they think great people of past agree.

[dragonsh]

Nationalism breeds patriotism which breeds selfishness. I still prefer Rabindranath Tagore’s human to human connection over nationalism.

Patriotism cannot be our final spiritual shelter; my refuge is humanity. I will not buy glass for the price of diamonds, and I will never allow patriotism to triumph over humanity as long as I live - Rabindranath Tagore

Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high. Where knowledge is free. Where the world has not been broken up into fragments. By narrow domestic walls. Where words come out from the depth of truth. Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection. Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way. Into the dreary desert sand of dead habit. Where the mind is led forward by thee. Into ever-widening thought and action. Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake.

[Koshkin]

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.--Samuel Johnson

[bouvin]

As Ambrose Bierce wrote in The Devil's Dictionary: "In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first." http://dd.pangyre.org/p/patriotism.html

[eklavya]

Why, how? In what sense?

[everybodyknows]

The meaning is that scoundrels, when confronted with evidence of their unanswerable crimes, will instead answer a different question: "Do you support some unquestionably virtuous cause?"

This is the reason that that runners of big cons typically give very generously to charities. See Anthony Trollope's "The Way We Live Now".

[eklavya]

Oh, I understood it differently. So it means that some scoundrels will use some virtue (in this case patriotism) to hide behind and not that patriotism is a bad thing?

[Koshkin]

I wonder if this particular 'virtue' has ever led to anything good. There is a parallel in the difference between, say, love (for one's land) and faith on the one hand and patriotism and (organized) religion on the other - the latter ones have invariably been used directly to promote hatred and intolerance in support of some political goals or in justifying criminal acts.

[eklavya]

You seem to be defining the "nationalism" being discussed here.

[Koshkin]

These are exactly the questions one begins one's path to enlightenment with.

[eklavya]

I don't know what you mean by that seriously :D

You want me start my journey towards "enlightenment" or would you elaborate why you mean by what you quoted?

[mistermann]

> it has become a fashion to brand any patriotic talk as "nationalistic"

Considering modern usage of the word, I can't tell what you mean by this. I've explained why here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17059121

EDIT: Aaaaand, immediately downvoted with no reply. I rest my case. :)

[Zuider]

I didn't downvote, but it may be more inspired by your style of presentation than your opinion. It is hard to make out what you are saying because your writing looks more like lecture notes or a shorthand of your private thinking process than a means of communicating to others. Please understand that I don't mean to be snarky, and I would be the first to acknowledge that writing clearly is difficult.

[mistermann]

I'm genuinely confused how writing in a transparent manner, being detailed, providing links to claims, etc can be considered hard to understand. And as usual, I am always happy to answer any question asked of me in an honest manner, so feel free.

I had a more substantial reply, but since my sincere and valid question was enthusiastically and immediately downvoted requiring me to keep the tab open until my censorship is lifted, I accidentally closed the tab. To me, the anti-intellectual groupthink overtaking online sites is rather alarming, especially considering how they are now where the vast majority of news (and accompanying discussion) is hosted and due to private ownership, no freedom of speech is required. And even if it was, a deliberate "misrepresentation" of someone's words can turn a controversial-at-best comment into a claimed (see this subthread) racial slur or threat of violence.

[pasbesoin]

This makes me think of a new (to me) term I may find useful: Trickle down participation.

Politics such as this: The real winners are the political and financial elite. But their supporters experience trickle down participation.

Professional sports: Trickle down participation.

A bit simplistic, and ignoring local-scale advantages to the participants. But I'm going to keep it in mind.

A few people getting very rich and powerful. And the rest celebrating this, while propping them up through their participation.

[eklavya]

Sorry man, I didn't downvote, I haven't even read your comment properly :D

[wu-ikkyu]

I googled "nationalism", and it's defined as "patriotic feeling". What do you think the difference is, according to your definition?

[eklavya]

Isn't exactly that discussed and defined in the article?