[ColinWright]

See, and now our beginner has to learn what "Pharo" is, or "Basic256", and how to use them.

It just feels like the rabbit hole has no bottom.

Seriously - what is "Pharo"? What is "Basic256"? What do they do for me? How do I install them? How do I run/use/access them?

It just feels endless.

So. Many. Tiny. Steps.

Some searching tells me that these are completely different alternatives to using Javascript. Now it's unclear why our beginner would want to use these - what advantages do they have over Javascript? Or Python? How will they get to a point of being able to contribute to Open Source, or to having an app or website others can use? What's the path?

In a private communication someone has accused me of being deliberately obstructive here, but I'm just trying to raise awareness of the height of the barrier to getting started, and how little real help there is out there. We, as a community, should do better at helping people get started in programming, people of all ages and levels of life experience.

[mabynogy]

You're negative. Are you depressed?

[ColinWright]

Not at all - I'm trying to point out that all the suggestions that technical people toss out, thinking they're helping, have a huge amount of technical tinkering underneath that most technical people just don't see. Then when I point it out people think I'm being obstructive, or in your case, that I'm just being negative because, you know, the only possible reason is because I must be depressed.

I'm not, I'm trying as hard as I can to be genuinely constructive. What people are currently doing superficially appears to be useful, but it's not, and I'm trying to raise awareness of what people need to do to be genuinely helpful.

[mabynogy]

What I really think about people willing to do programming is that most of them won't become programmers. People who are interested by programming just program. I could say that for carpentry too.

But I think we should do more programmable tools (like excel) to help people to deal with complexity.