[mhomde]

I think Berlins "Poor but happy" times are fast coming to an end. Rents have been rising quickly the last few years and tech companies and startups becoming more prevalent. Heck, Neukölln went from being a cheap alternative to being as trendy and expensive as Kreuzberg.

Berlin kinda, from what I understand, enjoyed it's special culture much because it wasn't an industrial city and lacked an large international airport, but cheap rent, international vibe and fun hipster values seems like the perfect void for tech to move into now that rents and prices in the usual "big cities" have gone through the roof. I can also imagine cities like Amsterdam and Berlin getting some Brexit escapees.

Mark my words, Berlin will be Europe's Silicon Valley within a few years.

[biztos]

I agree completely that "cheap Berlin" is rapidly disappearing. Just this morning I was checking real-estate prices[0] for the first time in a few years and was a bit shocked. Folks in Silicon Valley or Munich or Hamburg would probably still find it cheap-ish but AFAIK local salaries have not remotely kept up with this trend. A million Euros for a nice family-sized flat in a good neighborhood is not exotic anymore, but for most Berliners that's an absurd sum.

Another interesting thing is that there are more and more ways to spend more and more of your money in Berlin. Consumerism is definitely on the rise, which IMO is bad news for people not making much money.

I wouldn't say Berlin lacks an international airport, I would say instead that the corruption/incompetence nexus managed to spare us the monstrosity of BER[1] and we can continue to use the lovely old urban airport at Tegel[2], though granted there are a lot of stopovers depending on where you're going.

Anyway I really doubt Berlin will be anything like Silicon Valley, well, ever. You could start with how radically differently the local tech scene views labor, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. I would love to be wrong though.

[edit: formatting]

[0]: https://www.immobilienscout24.de

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Tegel_Airport

[hknd]

Rents (and cost-of-living) are still super cheap compared to other metropolises like NYC, London or Singapore. Ratio of salary and cost-of-living is still looking good in Berlin.

[walshemj]

How do you think the views on labor differ between SV vs Berlin ?

[biztos]

In SV there is (it seems to me) an attitude that tech entrepreneurship is a win-win for capital and labor, meaning (among other things) talent is paid well. In Berlin I'm sure there are some companies that see it that way, but many are in Berlin because of the cheap labor and they have every intention of leveraging that.

Once you get above a certain level, especially working for bigger companies, it levels out, and you won't be compensated in cash as much as in SV but you'll get all the other things that come with a reasonably well-run social democracy.

But in SV, say, nobody who's any good would work for the Brothers Samwer. In Berlin lots and lots of people need the job.

I could be wrong about this of course, I'm an old fart with a stable gig and all my data are anecdata.

[LifeLiverTransp]

Its all those riches from authoritarian countrys fleeing to "safer/stable" countries.

A millionaire in a party state is one head of states headache away from loosing it. And they know it.

[guywhocodes]

As someone traveling between Europe and Asia a lot and a former resident in Berlin. IMO Berlin is far from having an international Airport, it has two European airports but flying there means transiting somewhere. I appreciate Tegel tho, only airport in a capitol I've been able to make a flight when still in the cab 30min before take off. Less than 4h door to door between my appartment in Berlin and my friends in Stockholm.

[biztos]

I should have included a smiley or something with my swipe at BER. :-)

For the lack of options out of Tegel you can pretty much thank Lufthansa.

[raverbashing]

Oh yeah, BER is a very expensive joke at the moment.

[aestetix]

I think this is overblown. The Berlin "housing crisis" is only happening in a few trendy neighborhoods-- Neuköln, Kreuzberg, F-schein, etc.

There is a rather ill-informed effort to attempt to compare it to, for example, what is happening in the Bay Area, which is absurd. In the Bay Area, any place to live within walking distance of public transit is so expensive that only tech workers can afford it, extending far beyond the San Francisco/Oakland city limits. In Berlin, if you don't mind living in one of the less "cool" neighborhoods, or gasp outside the Ringbahn, you will be fine.

I think the issue is that two decades ago, rents in Berlin were absurdly cheap for a number of reasons related to the DDR, and now things are starting to normalize a bit so people are complaining.

[uhnuhnuhn]

The Berlin housing crisis is very much happening almost everywhere. City-wide average rents increased 45% between 2009-2015. Rents doubled in some districts in that timeframe and even in the least affected areas (Marzahn and Spandau) rents increased by more than 30%.

[aestetix]

I'd argue that's a reflection on what I said before (prices normalizing from dirt-cheap). I do not consider these numbers a crisis at all.

Here is an example of why the Bay Area is in a crisis: https://abcnews.go.com/US/san-francisco-resident-fights-sudd...

A San Francisco man had his rent increased from $1800 a month to $8000 a month. True, it is one of the more extreme examples, but this is what I would call a crisis. Can you show me examples like this from Berlin?

[jpla]

The situation are a bit different though. The Bay Area is competitive despite its housing market, while Berlin to a large extent is competitive because of its housing market. If rents become similar to other major European cities Berlin will lose a lot of its appeal and potential compared to those other cities.

[jpatokal]

Silicon Valley became what it is today because there was cheap industrial land for chip fabs and random startups.

[jpla]

Debatable. As far as I know it wasn't really until around 2000 that Silicon Valley became dominate enough to really set it apart from other regional technology centers like Dallas, Boston or Pittsburgh.

In any case that doesn't really help Berlin if it takes, say, five years for its housing market to catch up to its European neighbors.

[evanlivingston]

What? You're overlooking an enormous number of factors.

If it's cheap industrial land alone that made Silicon Valley how did Texas, Nevada, The Midwest and other places miss out on a tech business boom?

[ido]

45% in 6 years is 6.21% compound per year, which is not unusually high for that time scale for an attractive large city.

[collyw]

Are the wages rising as fast? I would doubt it.

[ido]

Probably not but that's again a global problem not a Berlin problem. My point was only that Berlin is not specifically harshly affected by these global trends, it's that way (or worse) in pretty much every attractive major city.

[kayoone]

but rent was also dirt cheap in 2000-2010, so its more moving towards the average in other big german cities now.

[scandox]

Even 5 years ago when I spent 3 months in Berlin the idea of calling Neuköln trendy would have seemed pretty nuts. So I think that suggests something radical is happening.

[ido]

I think your memory may be faulty or you weren't that well integrated into the local "scene". 5 years ago was 2013, I was already living in Berlin back then and Neuköln was already billed as "the next Kreuzberg". 10 years ago...you may have had a point.

But also remember that then and now we're only talking about very specific areas of Neuköln which are super hip, it's actually a huge district and most of it is still "not cool". The bits close to Tempelhofer Feld and Kreuzberg have been gentrifying for many years.

[scandox]

You're spot on. I just checked and I was there in 2009. Feeling old now.

[erikb]

Even in Lichtenberg, certainly not trendy at all, rents have increased significantly (although not doubled yet afaik).

[drinchev]

> Berlin will be Europe's Silicon Valley within a few years.

Things that need to happen before this :

1. Salaries need to grow faster. Rent is really high for the new comers specialists.

2. Companies need to increase the salary gap between good and bad workers. Right now you are not able to negotiate more than 10% on top of the "average" salary.

3. Germany needs to fix the privileges of employees having options / shares of the company. With the current legislation / founders attitude is quite boring and useless.

[valarauca1]

> Salaries need to grow faster

Berlin software engineer salaries are seriously worse then any where in america. I’ve seen desktop IT support in the US MidWest pay more than developers in Berlin.

Hard to convince me to move internationally and write code. I can just move home, write zero code, and spend all day telling people to try, “turning it off and on again”. Cashing identical value checks.

[yc-kraln]

Sure, but when you lose your job in the US Midwest you are without healthcare and you will probably lose your house, etc. It's impossible to compare jobs based only on salary, you have to calculate with the total cost of living and balance against services provided and peace of mind.

One of the reasons there are so many startups in Berlin is because if you fail, you are taken care of--you won't lose your house, or your health insurance, or have to leave. Another reason is that it's very straightforward to get work permits for engineers. Try hiring someone from Estonia in the US Midwest...

[rhapsodic]

>Sure, but when you lose your job in the US Midwest you are without healthcare and you will probably lose your house, etc.

More likely you will get another job at a comparable salary and keep your house and your healthcare.

[arximboldi]

While I would be happy to have higher salaries here, they are not really comparable to the US. Here you have a social system (free education, public health insurance) and work way less (hardly 8 hours a day, 25-30 days vacation as normal, etc.). For European standards salaries here are actually rather decent. With the current rent situation, I hope though they rise to the standards of the more affluent German south.

[briandear]

Let’s say you can make €45k in Berlin. Let’s say you can make €90k in the US.

“Free” education costs roughly €45k per year. In the US, 2-3 weeks of vacation is normal (for tech jobs,) so let’s say in Germany, you get an additional week. Let’s now say that US workers work an extra 200 hours per year.

So “free” education plus an additional week off plus 200 annual hours of less work. Costing €45k per year.

In a work week, let’s say in Germany it’s 38 hours. So that week of extra vacation, plus the 200 extra annual hours, we have 238 extra hours of work. Not counting “free” university that means that extra time off costs you €189 per hour. Let’s say that a typical US state university costs €60k for 4 years. That represents about 315 hours of work (at the €189 per hour rate.) Which means that in just 2 years or less, the salary differential would pay for your university education. After that expense, then, for the rest of your career, you are essentially paying €189 per hour of extra time you get as a bonus for working in Germany.

Taxes are excluded from this calculation, but while they are higher in Germany, you get more “stuff,” so it balances out on the tax side reasonably well. However, something that is relevant is that the cost of consumer goods is higher in Germany, so your disposable income is going to be less than the US.

I am not saying Germany is “bad” — a great place to live, but in pure economic terms, you are definitely worse off by comparison to a similar job in the US.

[yladiz]

Depending on where you are in Germany you can get 30 days off per year, and on the low side is 25 days. Anything lower isn’t worth considering. So it’s not 1 more week, it’s at least 5-6 weeks of vacation per year, double what you might get in the states, on top of which is fully respected (no one would care if you take 1 consecutive month, even if you are a CEO). In the states you have to sometimes fight for your vacation even if it’s in your contract because of the work culture.

I would say you could make, before taxes, $100k per year in San Francisco with solid 2-3 years of experience, whereas in Berlin it’s around €60k average. On top of that if you’re talking about the whole of the US it’s wildly different between Cleveland and San Francisco, so your comparison isn’t really fair. 100k in SF is not great, 100k in Cleveland is. So your math doesn’t really work here, unless you compare directly two cities and also compare taxes.

[cr1895]

>In the US, 2-3 weeks of vacation is normal (for tech jobs,) so let’s say in Germany, you get an additional week

Are you expected to take those 2-3 weeks? Is your time away actually respected? I'm sure for some it is, but I don't believe that to be universal.

>a great place to live, but in pure economic terms, you are definitely worse off by comparison to a similar job in the US.

Economic comparisons like this hardly capture all that accounts for the differences between these two scenarios. Work culture, quality of life, personal fulfillment, etc. This purely monetary estimation can be informative, but, it is only part of the story.

[arximboldi]

25 days of vacation is 5 weeks of vacation, 30 days is 6 (we only count work days.) And by free education I mean from 1 year until university. If you have kids that is a huge difference. Plus sickness, etc, which is expensive over there. Plus, my friends working in the US tell me it is normal to work 50/60 hours there, specially in the companies where you make the big bucks, but maybe you can really work less if you are assertive with your boss and colleagues...?

I still agree that it is financially better to live in the US if you work as senior at Google/Amazon/Facebook scale, because the difference becomes huge. I still prefer Berlin due to live-style issues (50/60 hour work weeks, car life, commutes, no clubbing, overall capitalistic mentality.)

[passiveincomelg]

I complain about low salaries for permanent positions all the time, but you can definitely do better than 45k. A programmer with a few years of experience should be able to get 60-75k without too much trouble.

[dx034]

The US has higher salaries across the board. But living costs are higher and you need to save more for pension, health care and education (if you have a family). Doesn't make salaries of SV comparable to Berlin but it's competitive vs most of Europe (and parts of Asia).

[hknd]

It also looks super bad if you compare it to southern Germany salaries.

Based on my interaction with "top" recruiters from Germany, I figured that I can compare: Senior SWE salary in the south with a CTO/Head-of salary in Berlin.

[mhomde]

Yeah I guess that's what stemming the tide :) Also a lot of German companies seem to require that you speak German. I know awesome programmers/designers living in Berlin but if they work for Berlin companies they seem to earn a pittance of what they'd would in for instance Stockholm. But if more tech companies, like Soundcloud, imports themselves into Berlin and Germany, employees and all, that will change.

Can it be because venture capital hasn't come to Berlin/Germany in a big way yet? Typically German companies seems more aimed at the German market rather than an international one, which maybe doesn't fuel a bubble as quickly.

[drinchev]

Typical Berlin startups as of 2018 usually look for importing developers from other countries with relocation help. This, IMHO, is already the beginning of the salary increase, which is inevitable.

Unfortunately the progressive taxation [1] is quite complicated and makes it impossible to increase your life-style with just a salary bump.

I guess that's one of the reasons Berlin is still considered as temporary place to work, before you find "something better".

1 : http://www.drinchev.com/blog/germany-freelancing-and-taxes/

[wellboy]

4. 100 Founders need to make billion dollar exits to fund universities, vc funds, industries

[saintPirelli]

No way. Europe's Silicon Valley will establish in Eastern Europe, where living is cheaper and governments are more willing to ease up on regulations to accomodate the flexible start-up employer-employee relationships. Warsaw, Sophia, Tallinn, those are the spots to keep an eye out for.

[mstade]

Speaking of Estonia, I was at their embassy in Stockholm last fall and they were pushing hard for Tallinn as the next European capital of tech. Nearly every conversation you had with them, regardless of topic, would somehow gravitate toward how great Estonia is to set up a tech shop. Whether because of cheap real estate or the quality of their work force, or the prevalence of craft beer – it was all just a great place to be.

Frankly I kind of bought it. I'm going to visit this summer.

[charlesdm]

I know a guy who lives there (he moved there, not a native), doing consulting and working remotely.

The advantage partially comes from the fact that developers are paid significantly above average wages, i.e. the average salary for most people is low (like 400 to 600 euros a month pre tax) yet developers take home 1,500 / 2,000 / 4,000 euros per month.

Cost of living + taxes are low as well.

[piva00]

Honestly speaking, Tallinn is a boring place. Might be good for business but I don't see it as attractive for people willing to move, maybe in the short-term for a job but it's not a place I'd see many settling in.

Go visit it anyway, that's, of course, just my impression, but even living in Stockholm (a place I consider a bit boring for my standards of big city life) I found Tallinn very very dull.

[mstade]

To each their own! :o)

Having lived several years in London, and experienced plenty more cities including NYC and San Francisco I’m more than ready for boring. Indeed, this is why my current home town is Stockholm because I kind of agree with you – it’s a little bit boring and very safe, and I love it!

[gaius]

Tallinn is massively more fun than Helsinki

[piva00]

Haha, that I really can't disagree with.

[saintPirelli]

I have vague plans to visit too. And keep in mind Estonia already has produced a success story in tech: Skype.

[fileeditview]

I really think none of these places (including Berlin) will be the Silicon Valley of Europe just because the salaries are too low. Why would talent leave elsewhere to go to eastern Europe and earn significantly less?

[saintPirelli]

Better schools for your kids, safer cities, better public transport, more and better maintained parks, better local produce. There are a lot of potential reasons for a decision like that.

[jk2323]

"Better schools for your kids"

You have better schools in the US if you live in the right neighborhood. Also, getting called "pig eater" is likely not tolerated in the US.

"safer cities" Europe is trying hard to catch up.

"better public transport" The only good thing. Yet, nothing beats public transport in NYC.

"more and better maintained parks" Not sure about this.

"better local produce" If you can afford to buy at Whole Paycheck, you get everything.

"There are a lot of potential reasons for a decision like that." The bottom line is: if you have money, life is better in the states. If you are poor, go to Germany.

[fileeditview]

It depends on where you are coming from I guess. I never really thought about people leaving the US. More like an intra-European competition for talent.

My point was however more targeted on the "go back home" guys. I (German) know several guys from Romania, Spain .. who don't plan to stay in Germany forever and just want to work here for a few years, earn good money (well compared to their country) and then return home.

This is however not possible if your home country has a higher cost of living.

[xiconfjs]

aren't these the usual plans of guest workers who never go back, because of the same reasons they left their home country?

[fileeditview]

Maybe that is so. But my point is still valid. If I PLAN to do this I cannot go to a country where salaries are much lower than in my home country where I want to return.

[Jommi]

You really think Eastern Europe ranks highly in those values?

[keiferski]

Compared to most American cities? Absolutely. The quality of life in Warsaw on $1,500 a month is vastly better than ~$4,000 a month in SV.

[pavelludiq]

Can't speak for the others, but here's Sofia's situation(at least from my experience):

- don't know about schools, but kindergardens are a privilege you'll be fighting for

- it's fairly safe, obviously exercise common sense

- the metro is great, but it only covers part of the city, the rest of public transit ranges from ok to abysmal, but if you pay for a year, it's cheap as hell too. But I've certainly had no need for a car, so it's doable if inconvenient at times.

- cycling infrastructure is horrible, and there isn't enough of it, but it's there at least and I don't think it's stopped anyone who wants to cycle

- Parks are fine, plus there's a mountain here, so if you need green, you got it.

Other factors you might want to consider:

- air quality and traffic are horrible, especially in winter

- night life is fine

- you can find good food, and you can find cheap food, and if you look, you can find good cheap food.

- gov healthcare is bad, but if you're in tech, your employer might give you additional private insurance, so it's not something I've had to worry about.

- taxes are low

- alcohol is cheap and there are no ridiculous "no sale of alcohol on Sundays or after 10pm" rules some western countries seem to like :).

- tech scene is active so if you want to hang around with techies, you won't be bored

- cheap marginal space is very much available if you don't want/need a glossy hip office in a nice location.

Personally I love it and it's main advantage is that although it's much more expensive than the rest of the country, it's still cheap as hell. I don't make much but I save a lot, I could probably afford to work only every other year if I was frugal enough. I did consider moving for the north-west a while ago, but I did the math and...yeah, the up in purchasing power would be there, but not enough to justify leaving. I still might do it just for the novelty and experience at some point.

[lioeters]

Prague - yes, especially compared to (much of) the U.S.

[to_bpr]

>Why would talent leave elsewhere to go to eastern Europe and earn significantly less?

I hope that whatever emerges in Europe is nothing but unattractive to Americans. The idea of Americans, particularly Bay Area techies who've already ruined a number of cities in that area, up and moving to Europe is utterly horrendous, as a European.

[jk2323]

"Warsaw, Sophia, Tallinn"

Doubt that any East European city will be close to a "European Silicon Valley" because of many reasons. Language. Xenophobia. Capital. Location. Culture.

Bucharest comes to mind but because of other reasons. Quite big and Romania has a higher GDP growth than China. But still. no.

[jk2323]

Before you downvote, give a reason. All these are interesting places. I likely prefer to live in Budapest or somewhere before I live in Berlin (again). Yet, this does not make these places a silicon valley contender.

Lisbon is a great place. I speak the language. Real Estate is already expensive as f.. if you want something decent. Great place to live or retire. But a new Silicon Valley? No.

[V-2]

Your point about "language" isn't convincing to me, as everyone speaks English in the IT sector anyway. And what sort of "xenophobia" are you referring to?

[jk2323]

Many of the East European countries are not very open and friendly to foreigners. Speak Poland, Czech Republic for example. Travel there and see for yourself. Sometimes it is country specific (e.g. Russians and Germans in Poland) or Ethnic specific (Say Hungary and Poland) or sometimes they hate everyone (speak Czech republic). Travel there to see yourself. Try to bring a foreign looking girl friend. Enjoy.

People in Romania seem to be very friendly. GDP growth higher than China but not sure I see a basis for a silicon valley there. I don't know Bulgaria.

[joefourier]

In the Czech Republic, people are certainly more reserved and less outwardly cheerful than in the US, but it's got nothing to do with xenophobia. You won't have any issues making friends as a foreigner, just because people smile less and strangers don't instantly treat you as their best friend does not mean they hate you.

[LifeLiverTransp]

Czech Republic sort of has a reason for that.

They got ripped off after the cold war/ the wall fell - most of the countrys assets (land/buildings) beeing sold of to western investors for cheap.

Ironically that is what makes them so good at tech now- if all you got is your head and your skils and no investments to sit on, that blad will be sharp.

[V-2]

> Travel there to see yourself. Try to bring a foreign looking girl friend. Enjoy.

The condescending tone is uncalled for. As for the advice, I don't really need to travel as I've lived in Poland for my whole life (minus a few years spent abroad / in the UK). I've also been to several countries in the region, and yes I have indeed brought quite a few "foreign looking" friends with me, including an Italian girlfriend.

I'm sorry if something unpleasant happened to you on such a trip - assuming you're speaking from first-hand experience, rather than just propagating negative stereotypes - but it still wouldn't entitle such sweeping generalizations.

[bitL]

The closest to Silicon Valley is London, however salaries there are pitiful. By the time Europe has any attempt to actually create an extremely well-paid bleeding-edge tech hub, that tech will be already in consolidation phase... Dream on.

[antihero]

For a fairly experienced developer in London you're looking at £60,000-£100,000 salary, which is $80,000-$135,000. Maybe not quite Silicon Valley but a far cry from pitiful. London is expensive to live, but nowhere near SV as far as I know.

[teddyuk]

contractor salaries in london are sweet!

[passiveincomelg]

Same in Berlin.

[danielam]

I usually don't like phrases like "Europe's Silicon Valley" or "Venice of the North". As much as they can be informative in some respects, such comparisons obscure and brush over the specificities of the things in question. It makes more sense to talk about the emergence of a strong tech sector in general terms and as one component of a healthy economy.

Having said that, there is reason to think that the region in question will become Europe's most dynamic and technologically powerful, in particular Poland, because of a number of coinciding factors, such as entrepreneurial spirit lacking in Germany and west of it, geopolitical necessity and historical precedent.

The geopolitical angle is quite interesting. Poland and the other countries sandwiched between Germany and Russia are situated on a geopolitical fault line that demands that these countries cooperate out of mutual interest. Economic strength becomes one pillar in maintaining not just a materially comfortable existence but a matter of existential importance and of independence. That's a pretty strong motivator given the history of the region. On top of that, the United States has a geopolitical interest in the region's strength. We know from analogous cases that American interest of this kind has usually contributed positively to regional and thus economic strength. And from recent developments vis-a-vis the Three Seas Initiative, we are witnessing a formal recognition of the necessity of regional strength by the countries in that region. In fact, the recent brouhaha in the European Commission over Poland is, when interpreted synoptically, a telltale sign of the country's rising importance.

[rurban]

They especially have much better talent, compared to the Berlin ruby/php/javascript hipsters.

[oblio]

Sorry for the hipsters, but Berlin is the capital of the biggest economy in Europe and it was once one of the biggest metropolises in the world plus one of the biggest hubs of economy and science.

It was always destined to go towards its past glory once Germany reunited. The only question was: "how long will it take for that to happen?".

[itsmenotyou]

Two points of contention:

1. It's not just hipsters this is affecting

2. This is not necessarily a move towards "glory". Most Berliners value the arts and cultural scene that exists in part due to low rents/cost of living and readily available performance/exhibition spaces. To see Berlin turned into another Silicon Valley would for most of us here be a major downgrade

[oblio]

Ok, to clarify a bit: cities are roughly ranked into categories. The rankings are quite fuzzy but I still think they're a good starting point for discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city

Based on the geostrategic importance of Berlin (capital of Germany, the biggest city in Germany, central position in the EU, etc.) it should be an Alpha+ city, if not an Alpha++ city. Right now it's not due to a historical accident that is being "fixed": the separation into West and East.

According to that study from 2004 (ancient, I agree), Berlin was classified as Beta. For comparison, they classified Bucharest as Beta+. I'm Romanian, but there's no way that makes any sense unless Berlin is "underperforming".

So if you're a Berliner, brace yourself! Want it or not, Berlin will move up in the world to its rightful place and prices will go up accordingly.

[deanCommie]

This list is heavily biased by political influence.

The fact that "Luxembourg" - a glorified village is an "Alpha" city says more about it's significance in the European Union than any amenities/industry/jobs/lifestyle that exist (or rather don't exist) in the city.

[barrkel]

Germany (Prussia in particular) extended quite a ways further east of Berlin when it was capital before; Berlin was the Prussian capital.

It is however very central for Europe, and is fairly well placed for growth in the eastern EU.

[mhomde]

Maybe Leipzig is the new Berlin :)

[Schaulustiger]

It's closer to just being Hypezig.

Source: am from Leipzig.

[rurban]

If so then Dresden. Dresden has all the brains and the industry. Plus it's the most beautiful town in Germany.

[_b8r0]

Nah, Bielefeld is where it's at ;)

[jhoh]

There's no Bielefeld. What are you talking about?

[krylon]

I keep telling people that places like London or Paris are more like the sleepy outskirts of the vibrant metropolis that is Bielefeld. They rarely take me serious, though. ;.-(

[LifeLiverTransp]

>Mark my words, Berlin will be Europe's Silicon Valley within a few years.

It might happen- but it still wont have an airport.

[hknd]

Munich is still the city with the most IT jobs and companies - I don't know if Berlin will catch up. Berlin has this start-up flare image, but based on numbers that's just not true.

[sveme]

I agree on Munich - and most of its startups are in tough topics involving hardware such as robotics, IoT etc. Still believe that engineering B2B is a better fit for a startup company in Germany than the often B2C model in silicon valley.

[laingc]

Yep, and compared to Munich, the startups I've seen in Berlin are extremely unimpressive.

[dx034]

It'll probably still have two airports.. Luckily the flight to Frankfurt is short and from there you can connect to most places in the world. But wouldn't be surprised if Tegel gets a few more direct connection to the US west coast.

[Mashimo]

Nice overview of the cost involved of trying to build the Berlin Airport: https://www.flughafen-berlin-kosten.de/

[rsynnott]

It has two airports. They're just kind of small and weird (or at least Tegel is; haven't been to the other one).

[_b8r0]

Berlin has two airports, Tegel and Schoenefeld.

[brombeer]

I think it's more likely to be Amsterdam, Zurich or Stockholm.

Large corporations don't want their headquarters in Berlin for tax reasons: There's a reason they're all moving to Switzerland.

The tech scene in Europe is very scattered.

[dx034]

Stockholm has a thriving tech industry and not really low tax rates. Tech can easily headquarter in a low tax domicile and employ most people in another country, all bigger companies are already doing that. I don't think that the difference in income tax explains where tech companies settle, it'll be much more dependent on availability of talent (and how easy it is to get people to move there). That's why Amsterdam, Berlin and Stockholm are so successful, they are all within the EU and have a good reputation with internationals.

[mhomde]

Yeah, but a huge problem with finding accommodation for it's recruits. In contrast to Berlin it's impossible to get a first hand rent contract. A second hand is going to be super expensive and buying somewhere somewhat central is ridiculously expensive.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nordics-housing/both-immi...

[sien]

Wow.

I was there ~15 years ago and it was bad then. It's remarkable that it's even worse now.

Stockholm is a fairly small city too. A million or so roughly.

[rurban]

So why is the car industry and the chip industry in Dresden then? It's about the talent.

[haywirez]

Not only Brexit escapees but from all over the periphery - it felt like half of Portugal, Italy and Greece was in Amsterdam. Same here in Berlin.

[expertentipp]

> I think Berlins "Poor but happy"

It went „poor but sexy”. The city is still poor but now got wrinkles and gray hairs here and there.

[ksec]

Slightly Off Topic:

I thought Germany has some form of protection by law so rent and property market don't get to hike the prices to whatever they want. So while the world 's property market is on fire by QE, Berlin hasn't moved a needle at all.

So why has rent risen so much?

[taejo]

Germany has fairly strong protection against rent increases for existing tenants: during a tenancy the rent can only increase up to the "ortsübliche Vergleichsmiete" (average rent of comparable properties in the same town), and by a maximum of 15%/20% (depending on location, 15% in Berlin) over three years.

In Berlin and many other cities there's also rent stabilization ("Mietpreisbremse") for new tenants: new leases on old properties may not exceed the maximum of 110% of the "ortsübliche Vergleichsmiete" and the previous tenant's rent. This falls away if the property is substantially renovated.

Renovations can stop both of these from working: in the former case by increasing the value of the apartment so that the set of "comparable properties" is much more expensive, possibly forcing the current tenant out so a new, wealthier tenant can be found to negotiate a new contract; in the second case, the control falls away completely if the value of renovations in the last five (?) years is at least a third of the total value.

The Mietpreisbremse is widely ignored: advertised rents exceed the limit for more often than not, and the landlords choose tenants they think are least likely to sue over it. The worst case for the landlord is that they have to pay back the difference from the point where the tenant complained; the best case is that the Federal Constitutional Court invalidates the law (which is fairly new and not yet judicially tested).

[scalesolved]

This is something that Spain also has (and is being phased out). I live in Barcelona, I pay 1000 euros for my two bed apartment, every 3 years the rent has to be renegotiated. My lovely neighbour who is 92 pays under 100 euros for the exact same flat opposite mine, she is on guaranteed rent protection, my neighbours below who are in their early 70s pay around 250 for the same flat.

The fact rent protection is being phased out makes me really sad, speculation will become even more rife (I can understand that extreme rent protection like above may not be workable but something in between is needed imo).

[passiveincomelg]

They always find some loophole. Often it's some kind of construction work like "improving isolation". AFAIK the rent control laws also don't apply for furnished flats.

[stiGGG]

It's mainly because the rents in Berlin had been comparatively extremely low in average. What happened in the last 5-10 years is more or less an adjustment to other cities in Germany e.g. Hamburg or Munich. But it is a big problem, the typical young IT worker can afford it, but the wages of "normal" workers didn't rise much, so gentrification happened like crazy in all central districts.

[Isn0gud]

It has risen for newer rentals. If I remember correctly, you can increase the rent max 3% per year for an ongoing contract and 10% in a new rental contract.

[adulakis]

City has failed to provide enough housing for incoming people. There is for example an old unused airport (Tempelhof) standing empy at prime location.

[m_fayer]

It's not empty. It's an enormous, unique, and beloved park that is starting to become as major an icon of Berlin as the Fernsehturm.

[passiveincomelg]

> Mark my words, Berlin will be Europe's Silicon Valley within a few years.

Reminds me of this classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e22vY4CWpEI

[ornitorrincos]

It does have two international airports:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Tegel_Airport

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Sch%C3%B6nefeld_Airport

Although they are planned to be closed when the third one opens(this one doesn't have a lack of issues though):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport

[hknd]

I think people think at something like FRA or LHR when talking about an international airport.

Tegel+Schoenefeld have combined ~30M passengers per year. FRA has ~65M, and LHR has ~80M.

Number of intercontinental flights from Berlin is just super low s.t. most business travelers fly do a stopover in FRA.

[hartator]

> Mark my words, Berlin will be Europe's Silicon Valley within a few years.

If Europe doesn’t pass more startups-killing laws, sure.

[Chris_Jay]

I can't help but think of that Leanord Cohen song, "First we take Manhatten".

[erikb]

This is also Mutti Merkel's proclaimed goal, stated like 10 years ago. She is patient, but she usually achieves what she sets out to do.

[skgoa]

The quickest growing software cluster in Europe is Dresden, though.

[dragandj]

> it lacks an international airport

Berlin has an international airport.

[mhomde]

Sorry, I think I meant transatlantic airport, or a "large" airport. Not sure, it used to lack something I heard but not sure exactly what and if it's still true. They're struggling with building a new one so something :)

[dragandj]

I've just checked: there are plenty of direct flights each day from Berlin to New York for example. It is not the central hub like Frankfurt is, but I doubt you won't fly to Berlin because it does not have enough infrastructure...

[dx034]

The lack of direct flights is partly due to the short connection to Frankfurt from where you can connect to most destinations in the world. That's also why some other German cities (Hamburg, Cologne, Hannover) have few transcontinental flights, despite the demand. There has been an increase in direct flights from Berlin recently but towards the US, Heathrow and Frankfurt are on the way and BA/LH can price out competitors easily.

Berlin is certainly underserved given its size but that's just the Frankfurt effect (an airport with >60m passengers p.a. for a city <1m population).

[greggarious]

>The lack of direct flights is partly due to the short connection to Frankfurt from where you can connect to most destinations in the world.

That's assuming you don't miss your connection and lose an hour or two getting rebooked, or dealing with lost luggage.

[taejo]

There might be transatlantic flights from Tegel, I'm not sure, but they're rare. Moscow and the Canary Islands are more or less the limits. I usually find myself going through Frankfurt, Paris or Amsterdam for intercontinental travel.

[rsynnott]

I was in Tegel a while ago, flying home to Dublin, so was in a non-Schengen section (Ireland's not in Schengen). The flight at the next gate was going to Beijing. I was kind of surprised, because Tegel has a very "small regional airport" feel (partially due to the weird design), but apparently there are flights to the other side of the world from there.

[alexcnwy]

Dresden and Budapest much better options nearby :)

[tannhaeuser]

It's "poor but sexy".

[collyw]

Its overrated in my opinion. I never really understood the appeal.

[thirduncle]

Because you got there way too late.

[collyw]

~ 8 or 9 years ago?

[thirduncle]

Actually yes, hafta say.

Granted there are few places in the world that are exactly the same as they were 20 or 30 years ago. But then again, certain places -- like San Francisco New York, London, and many, many other cities -- have arguably "tipped" to an extent such that, while the postcard views are pretty much the same -- the overall vibe and intensity is but a glimmer of what it once was.

And sadly, Berlin seems to be one of those places.

[jk2323]

"Mark my words, Berlin will be Europe's Silicon Valley within a few years."

Doubt it. Lack of professional attitude. Disastrous politicians. 3rd tier universities. Lack of capital. Large underclass, big welfare spending.

It is very hard to set up a "silicon valley". The silicon valley had and has some very unique points, including military origins, if I remember right. Germany still has a strong and broad industry, which is lacking in most Eastern and Western European Economies. This is an advantage (try to do a non-software technology start-up in a country that does not have the suppliers and partners, then you know). In the end it is extremely unlikely that EUrope will achieve something similar than the Silicon valley.

Yes, Berlin once was a scientific, cultural, industrial and technological powerhouse. These times won't come back.

The more interesting question would be, can China manage to create a new silicon valley? I have my doubts.

[HillaryBriss]

> Large underclass, big welfare spending.

I don't know what the comparable figures in Berlin are, but in Silicon Valley, about 11% live in poverty.

"About 11.3 percent of Bay Area residents are living at or below the poverty level, according to the report, “Poverty in the Bay Area,” that was released by the Joint Venture Silicon Valley Institute for Regional Studies. The data reflects levels reached in 2013, the most recent year for which these statistics are available."

https://www.mercurynews.com/2015/04/01/poverty-rates-near-re...

[ahartmetz]

The lack of legacy, good CS universities and capital may matter, I don't see how the other things you mention matter. The big plus is it's a great place to live - it is where things happen.

IMO computer science education is crap everywhere in Germany - it's either mathematics or latest hype topic with no "working technology" in the middle. Professors say informatics alumni will design algorithms, programming is for the plebs, or some such. Where do I even start?

There isn't a single respected programming language from Germany. We have nothing like OCaml, or Python, or INRIA or EPFL or ETH Zürich for that matter.

[0xsfv]

May I ask which part of Germany you live in and specifically what your opinion about TUM, KIT and RWTH Aachen is then?

I think it is logically not profound to speak for whole Germany.

[ahartmetz]

I think it matters more where I studied. First Heidelberg, then FU Berlin - actually Physics with secondary subject CS. TUM, KIT and RWTH are maybe the best at CS in Germany, but IMO still not good. What are they known for except being good universities for CS?

[0xsfv]

The fact that you are asking this question makes me believe that you are speaking without having tried to search for an answer on your own. As a CS graduate with secondary subject Mathematics from TUM, I can only speak on behalf of it. You might find https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=194&v=iu6UboRqan... interesting.

How do you know that TUM is not good enough? Probably you are referring to its popularity abroad? Well its definitely worse than that of Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Caltech, etc. But heck, we don't have Hollywood to constantly make plugs in blockbuster movies to boost worldwide opinion.

[yannovitch]

I think that what he is referring to is the lack of big leadership in one (or many) tech sector .

From the examples he mentions, I know automatically (without searching for it) for example that Scala originated at EPFL, that ETHZ (& EPFL to a lesser extent) produce some of the most advanced things related to drones, that OCaml originated in France and is pushed by INRIA, etc... But there is nothing coming immediately to mind about TUM