[itronitron]

Well, I agree that there are certainly some of those but they tend to be the most visible as a result of their personal characteristics that you mention, and that is true for many organizations. For a variety of reasons, the people that are doing the interesting stuff typically don't draw much attention to themselves.

[fapjacks]

Certainly. I made friends from those days that I still hang out with today, and who made me reconsider whether or not I'd ever join one of those organizations. But I was speaking in sweeping generalities that represent my own experiences in dealing with those folks over a number of years.