[titzer]

> seem almost synonymous, unfortunately.

This is what I disagree with. Evolution is not a process that is maximizing anything. What survives just survives. We got stuck in a feedback loop that optimized brain size for evolutionary fitness, but we're stuck in a tiny fractal corner of a corner of a corner of the entire space of biological life. E.g. Tardigrades (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade) are extremely successful at survival in a huge variety of conditions, and very stable over millions of years without a lot of genetic drift. Similar for cockroaches. We don't consider these "pinnacles" of evolution just because of our arbitrary value system. Yet cockroaches (and all insects, really) serve extremely important jobs in ecosystems which would collapse without them.

Humanism is blind and immoral, IMO.

[tome]

> Humanism is blind and immoral

That's a judgement that a human can make only because our species reached the pinnacle of evolution.

[nkrisc]

I assume by "pinnacle of evulution" you mean the currently most successful species in terrestrial ecosystem on the planet Earth. Surely there is no "pinnacle" to all of evolution, whatever that would even mean.

You seem to be implying that evolution is a process with some ideal, perfect outcome that can be achieved, or you're just being sarcastic. I can't tell but both are silly.

[tome]

I didn't introduce the word "pinnacle" to this debate, titzer did. I just thought it was ironic that he/she was using his/her moral judgement to criticize the human species in such a way.

[titzer]

I introduced it as a strawman, just trying to be terse. You embraced it to say that we must be at some kind of pinnacle to be able to make moral judgments. I started by pointing out facts; despite the perjorative term "bastards", it's pretty undeniable that humans have pretty much decimated every other form of life that is either a competitor or not a domesticated food source. As for "blind", that's not a moral judgment, whereas "immoral" clearly is. I admitted that both are my opinion, not fact.

[airstrike]

Of all the species mentioned in this thread, only one can sit in front of a computer and type out their opinions about evolution. So, yeah, we're the pinnacle of evolution at least as far as Earth is concerned.

[nkrisc]

That's a very anthropocentric metric to use, it's no surprise we're the best at it.

Whales are the largest animals alive today, so perhaps they're the pinnacle of evolution.

Implying there's a "pinnacle" of evolution implies evolution has a goal or intended outcome, which it does not.