[lucideer]

> controls that I trust.

I think this trust might be misplaced.

> Example: Location history. It is turned off by default.

Displaying your location history to you is turned off by default. Google's own recording of your location, for their purposes, cannot be turned off.

[lern_too_spel]

> Google's own recording of your location, for their purposes, cannot be turned off.

Citation needed. Android even lets you turn off AGPS, which collects anonymous location data to update itself. As far as I know, this is not even possible on iOS.

[kop316]

I'll copy an earlier post of what I found:

On Android, I noted before that when I turned on and off location services, the GPS lock was near instantaneous (i.e. when I turned on location, Google Maps located me with GPS precision immediately. There could be other ways of how this happens, it was noted in another post of mine, but that had still had me a bit suspicious. I replaced Google Play Services with microG recently (https://lineage.microg.org/). I then saw that it was MicroG, NOT the OS, that had control over my location, and MicroG still tracks my location when Location is off(https://github.com/microg/android_packages_apps_GmsCore/wiki...).

While none of this conclusively points to Google Play Services tracking me when it is off, the way that Android is set up makes me very strongly suspect that's what they did.

[lallysingh]

By tracking, do you mean the phone keeping track of its own location, or it sending location data back to Google?

Google maintains a database of wifi networks and their locations (I don't know the ways this data is acquired) to help triangulate the position: https://www.quora.com/How-does-android-use-WiFi-to-get-your-...

[lucideer]

> I don't know the ways this data is acquired

It's been acquired from a range of sources. Most notably, Google Streetview cars collected a very large initial data set. Once you have that, it's quite easy to maintain an up-to-date dataset by verifying new routers picked up against nearby known routers (as well as verifying against GPS sensor data obviously).

This tech is not only in Android phones, but also every Chrome browser, so that's a lot of incoming data. The API used to be used by iOS and Safari (before Apple Maps) and Mozilla Firefox (before they launched their own WiFi and cell network database; theirs is released under CC0 though so I'm sure Google use their data too).

There are also other competitors to Google, Apple, Mozilla here with their own databases, like Skyhook, Navizon, AlterGeo.

[kop316]

By tracking, I mean MicroG/Google Play Services controls location services, not Android OS.

[lallysingh]

.. but does the location leave the device?

[kop316]

That's a great question. I cannot conclusively say that Google Play Services does that, but I cannot think of another reason for why Android would be set up that way.

I welcome any alternative conclusions though.

[greenhouse_gas]

Wait, microG does this stuff too? Or did you mean OpenGApps?

[kop316]

OpenGApps is Google Play Services, the only thing open about it is the script to get Google's Apps.

I meant MicroG, it is documented on their site (see the link).

[lazybreather]

You can just go to active services and check for yourself. Of course it is possible to end the google location service. It will be back in a few seconds. In case you try too hard random pop ups start on your home screen effectively making the phone unusable. Google's biggest trick is that it made people feel like everything is in their hands (including and especially developers which is really sad).

[distant_hat]

To get around this, ad networks can often buy location data directly from cell carriers themselves. While Google may not sell this, Sprint and others will for the right price and conditions.

[Froyoh]

They do track it and will prevent logins from unusual locations. Happened to me when using a VPN.

[pgeorgi]

Yes, but not through GPS, or the location information compiled about my logins would be way more accurate than it is (often off by 100-200 km in any direction). Probably IP based geo location (that would naturally trigger with VPNs that give you an IP in $whereever).

That has nothing to do with the GPS setting of your phone.

[cryptonector]

That's picking a nit. GP or whatever said "GPS", but does it matter which technology is used to track your location? Clearly not. And many users say "GPS" to mean all location technologies too, so this doesn't seem like a useful nit to pick, honestly.

[cbr]

Every time you load a web page they can see your IP address, and IP addresses can be mapped back to rough locations. Sometimes people use "GPS" to also include things like your phone figuring out where it is based on what WiFi names it can see, but I don't think I've ever seen it for IP-based geolocation.

(Disclaimer: I'm an engineer at Google)

[cryptonector]

Right. There's the IP address, cell tower location, wifi name location, and GPS. People don't care which it is, except they want it (because then they want precision).

[_o_]

Stop communicating silently with your servers. Do it. Ask for each and every call to them unless the communication is already confirmed by users. Make all http* communication go trough http proxy which logs all the traffic in clearly visible form and only than make https. Show the data sent, make google play and framework open source. Enable users to see your hidden syncs (oh yeah those with asterisks infront (you DO know about them, right?) and disable them and keep their settings after updates instead of resetting them. Explain why with microg, the battery and network usage drops for 1/3. And I am not using any of your "services", no maps, no gmail, dns (oh yeah my rom is modified, a lot) nothing. Stop bubbling! Stop corelating order of pages visited to fingerprint users (and I know you are doing this), stop using cell towers to get location even if gps is turned off. Stop giving ISPs your boxes which makes spying on users local on ISP level.

Either you have no clue about what is going on in your company or you are here as a PR guy.

I really hope that GDPR will hit you hard, as far as I am concerned you are far worse than Facebook, more harmfull than Monsanto, you have opened Pandoras box of user tracking and becoase of you now every single company is doing it. And just so you know, by writting this, my karma will fall for at least 10 points as your fanbase (which typically doesnt even understand what I have written) will downvote me a lot. I am telling you this just for you to understand how very pissed off on behaviour of your company some people are. The only thing that is into your favor was actually your biggest mistake - you have mistakenly made android open source which makes it far more feasible to silence it down to the point where it no longer communicates with your domains. This was maybe when you were still having the "don't be evil" attitude, at least as form of PR.

[lucideer]

I don't think anyone mentioned anything about GPS until now. We're talking about Google recording your location, which can be inferred from a number of sources, including GPS, WiPS/WFPS, IP, and others. WiPS/WFPS is the most commonly used by Google.

[pgeorgi]

The great-grand-poster:

"Android even lets you turn off AGPS, which collects anonymous location data to update itself. As far as I know, this is not even possible on iOS."

AGPS is GPS, assisted but still GPS.

[lucideer]

I guess I was unclear: that could probably be reworded to say "I don't think anyone specified GPS"

That ggp prefixed that line on AGPS with "even"; they were asking for citation that Google persistently tracks location, and just used AGPS as one example.

The point being, saying Google allows you to disable GPS is a world away from saying Google allows you to disable location tracking. And I'm not talking about IP geolocation.

I don't even know if they do completely respect your choice to disable GPS (citation needed indeed here), but I do know that they persistently track you via WiPS/WFPS at the very least, if not other methods.

[lmkg]

I assume OP is talking about geo information inferred from IP Address.

[Infernal]

Or cell tower... or WiFi SSIDs... or NFC payments...

[crankylinuxuser]

> Example: Location history. It is turned off by default.

Do you want to turn Location History on?

Are you suuuuure you don't want to turn location history on?

To use maps effectively you need location history on. Turn on?

Location history may affect ____ you wanna turn it on?

How about now, location history is a great thing to turn on....

EDIT: for those of you who downmodded this, the point was that if you have location history off, Google spams you constantly with requests to turn it on. You'll get this request for opening up maps, using Google Now, or a dozen other things generated from many apps. There is also no option to temporarily turn on for app.

Not so nice uses of LocHis: https://www.androidauthority.com/google-android-location-his...

Explains how LocHis tendrils are everywhere: https://qz.com/1183559/if-youre-using-an-android-phone-googl...

[majormajor]

I couldn't set a fucking timer with the Assistant on my Pixel without being told I need location history.

Seemed like a low enough bar.

[abawany]

This. The repeated prompts almost seem intent on ensuring that one will click yes inadvertently at some point.

[mda]

This is not true.

[lucideer]

It is true.

Firstly, I was pointing out one small example of Google's privacy settings being non-obvious, which the GP mentioned in their post. There are many, many others one could go into, but we'll stick with just user location privacy for now.

Also, minor disclaimer: What Google does or doesn't collect varies over time (as their policies and regulation changes, and in response to various court-cases). What they might have done according to one source a certain number of weeks/months ago they might have since stopped doing. But my point is that they cannot be trusted to follow the implied behaviour of high-level settings.

However, since you've refuted my statement, some examples:

1. Google's own terms at [0]

> some information (such as the association of your Google Account to your Google Wifi network) is stored by Google even if all privacy controls are turned off.

This is bundled with Google's tracking of the geographic location of each Wifi network to feed their WiPS/WFPS services.

2. As @lern_to_spell has alluded to, "Location Reporting" and "Location History" are separate settings; the former does allow you to turn off some (though not quite all) location recording for your Android device at least, but the latter setting is still very misleading, and the former setting comes with a sacrifice (some apps become unusable). See [1]

3. Even with all of the above granular settings and admissions in terms, Google still have demonstrated in the past that they cannot be trusted to follow even their own loose promises w.r.t. respecting user privacy. e.g. [2] [3] [4] - note these articles are spread over 3 years, and are about events from 6 years previous; not exactly a promising sign of Google's policies being corrected by the court actions.

- [0] https://support.google.com/wifi/answer/6246642?hl=en

- [1] https://www.howtogeek.com/195647/googles-location-history-is...

- [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/may/15/google-ad...

- [3] https://www.wired.com/2012/05/google-wifi-fcc-investigation/

- [4] http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-24047235

[mda]

0 is about Google wifi it is not any wifi. What you claimed is still untrue, you are conflating irrelevant things.