[namelost]

A high rate of road deaths isn't a fait accompli. Musk would have us believe that technology is the only answer.

The UK has the 2nd-lowest rate of road deaths in the world (after Sweden).

The roads in the UK are not intrinsically safe, they are very narrow both in urban and rural areas which means there are more hazards and less time to avoid them.

However, the UK has strict driver education programme. It is not easy to pass the driving test, with some people failing multiple times. It means that people only get a license when they are ready for it. Drink-driving will also get you a prison sentence and a driving ban.

[Svip]

Just a note. Switzerland ranks better than the UK. By inhabitants: Switzerland (2.6), Sweden (2.8) and UK (2.9). By motor vehicles: Switzerland (3.6), Finland (4.4), Sweden (4.7) and UK (5.1). By number of kilometres driven: Sweden (3.5), Switzerland (3.6) and UK (3.6).

I'd also note that most European countries are hot on the heels of the UK, Sweden and Switzerland by the above measures. By comparison, the US numbers are 10.6, 12.9 and 7.1, respectively. Most European countries are well below those numbers.

Particularly in Western European and Nordic countries, the driving tests are very strict. Even for all the stereotypes, France's numbers of 5.1, 7.6 and 5.8 are quite good, and they are moving in the right direction.

Sources:

* http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/road_safety_st...

* https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/transport/road-safety-annual-r...

Notes:

I use death rate, not incidents/accidents rate.

I ignored "smaller" countries for the above listing, such as San Marino and Kiribati.

All numbers are from 2015, and they are also presented in the Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...

[EnderMB]

As someone that has been caught speeding, it's also worth mentioning that one of the big reasons why the UK has improved its road safety statistics is a reasonably new initiative where you get an option on your first offence to either take the points on your license or to attend a safety workshop.

IIRC, the workshop was about three hours, but it was surprisingly useful. The instructors treated you like adults and not children or criminals, and they gave fairly useful tips on driving and looking out for things like lights suddenly changing, ensuring you are in the right gear, how you're supposed to react if an emergency vehicle wants you to go forward when you're by a set of traffic lights with a camera, etc.

However, on the drink driving front, given the news with Ant from Ant and Dec I think it's safe to assume that not everyone gets a prison sentence for drink driving.

[emiliobumachar]

Out of curiosity, how are you supposed to react if an emergency vehicle wants you to go forward when you're by a set of traffic lights with a camera?

I would think to look carefully at all directions and, if visibility allows, pass the red light, then contest the fine with an "emergrncy vehicle passing through" defence. But what is the official position?

[Svip]

I am not sure the UK has traffic light cameras, but they do some places in Germany. And the official position in Germany, and in most of Europe I think, is that emergency vehicle decisions trumps everything else. If a police officer directs you to do something that would break the law, then you should do it, as a police officer's decision trumps regular traffic laws.

At least, that's how it works in Germany and Denmark. But I don't think Denmark has traffic light cameras. I've never seen them anyway. But I've seen them in Germany.

Of course, this is assuming you don't actually cross the entire junction, but rather just moves out into the junction, so the emergency vehicle can get through.

[namelost]

It's illegal to cross through a red light, even if there is an emergency vehicle behind you that wants to get through.

[EnderMB]

Yep, that's what we were told. It doesn't matter if you're doing the right thing by getting out of someone's way, you'll get a fine/points if you cross the line.

Although, if you are at a set of traffic lights and an emergency vehicle tries to get you to cross the line, what you should do is write down the registration plate and contact the relevant service to report the driver. The instructor on this course was ex-police, and according to him police, paramedics, and firefighters in the UK are taught to not do this under any circumstance, and if they are caught trying to persuade someone to cross a red traffic light then they can get in a lot of trouble.

[gsnedders]

AFAIK:

The only case that trumps a red traffic light is when given a signal by an authorised person (e.g., police officers, traffic officers, etc).

I think under a literal interpretation of the law you are obliged to commit an offence if you are beckoned on across a stop line at a red traffic light; you can either refuse the instruction to be beckoned on (an offence) or you can cross the stop line (an offence). That said, there's plenty of habit of the beckoning taking precedent over the lights.

Basically the only time you see any police officer instructing traffic from a vehicle is when on a motorbike, typically when they're part of an escort.

[wastedhours]

That's the way I think it works - I had to do that on a set of lights I thought had a camera (turns out it mustn't have been on as nothing came of it), but quickly weighed it up in my head of "several hours of BS arguing it for me" vs "someone might die".

Police cars will have dash cams, not sure on ambulances or fire engines.

That being said, scariest thing I did on the road was going through a red light to let an ambulance through at a motorway off-ramp. You better hope everyone else has heard those sirens.

[cmdkeen]

Drink driving rarely attracts a prison sentence. In the vast majority of cases it attracts a driving ban along with a significant fine. The sentencing guidelines have imprisonment as an option for blowing over 120 where the limit is 35 (in England and Wales, it is lower in Scotland now).

The UK went through a major cultural change relating to drink driving several decades ago, it isn't viewed as acceptable, the police get tip offs on a regular basis.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/item/excess-al...

[hibby]

It's not too common to head to prison for a single DD incident. It's also worth noting that England&Wales and Scotland have different drink driving laws.

In Scotland, the BAC limit is lower than in England and the punishment is a 12 month driving ban and fine for being over the limit - no grey areas or points or getting away with it.

In England a fine and penalty points are common, repeat offenders can be suspended and jailed. The severity of the punishment can often depend on how far over the limit you are and other factors.

[DanBC]

> However, on the drink driving front, given the news with Ant from Ant and Dec I think it's safe to assume that not everyone gets a prison sentence for drink driving.

Has he been sentenced?

[EnderMB]

Nope, I think his court case has been moved back. The court wouldn't say why, but it's believed to be because they want him to ensure he gets the most out of his time back in rehab.

[notahacker]

Other innovations include an off road "hazard perception test" I'd be pleasantly surprised if derivatives of self driving software could reliably pass.

[jaggederest]

> The roads in the UK are not intrinsically safe, they are very narrow both in urban and rural areas which means there are more hazards and less time to avoid them.

Actually, paradoxically that means they are actually safer. People drive slower on narrower roads, which means that accidents are within the safe energy envelope that modern cars can absorb.

Very, very few people will ever die as a passenger or driver in a car accident at 25 mph / 40 kph. At 65mph / 100kph, the story is completely different.

[namelost]

You say that but people will happily drive at 50+ down a narrow country road. I think the "narrow = slower" only works for a limited period of time before people get normalised to it.

[wastedhours]

Had to thread a van through a temporary concrete width restriction the other day - when it's that narrow, even the Uber behind me wasn't giving me grief for going that slowly!

The country roads one has always dumbfounded me though - why some of those have national speed limits I will never know.

[tikkabhuna]

As far as I'm aware, they're national speed limits because they don't have the resource to work out the limit, or police them. I learnt on country roads and my instructor was very clear that although I could go at 60mph, I should drive to the conditions of the road.

[Balero]

Growing up driving in country roads in the UK you learn some tricks (dumb tricks you shouldn't do). One example is at night time you can take corners more quickly by driving on the wrong side of the road. If you can't see another cars headlights, then there are none coming.

The thought of doing this now scares me and I don't do this and suggest that no one else does either. But I know many people still drive like this.

[gsnedders]

> The country roads one has always dumbfounded me though - why some of those have national speed limits I will never know.

Why not? Even roads with lower speed limits you're required to drive at a speed appropriate for the road, the conditions, and your vehicle; the speed limit merely sets an upper-bound, and it's not really relevant whether it's achievable. Just look at the Isle of Man where there is no national speed limits: most roads outside of towns have no speed limit, regardless of whether they're a narrow single-lane road or one of the largest roads on the island.

[wastedhours]

If you set a limit, some people will drive it regardless. Even if you're supposed to drive to the road and conditions, there are enough utter morons out there who'll take a blind narrow corner at 60.

[zip1234]

The UK also has a lot of roundabouts for road junctions. It means less 'run red light' collisions.

[maccard]

> It is not easy to pass the driving test, with some people failing multiple times. It means that people only get a license when they are ready for it.

And that's the way it should be. The driving test may not be easy, but it's not any more difficult than driving is. People should be held to a high standard when controlling high speed hunks of metal.