[jakarta]

Greece has a debt crisis. The state borrowed some €216 billion and now cannot pay it. This isn't just some slow down caused by the business cycle that can be fixed by reducing taxes.

Tax evasion costs the Greek government an estimated $20B a year. I would say that improving tax collection would significantly help Greece make payments on their debt. You have a big problem when there are millionaire doctors not paying a cent in taxes to the state.

Sure, they have money wasting state enterprises, they could try to privatize some of them - but it is something that should not be done in a hasty manner. Rushes to privatize have led to massive failures (see Russia, parts of Latin America).

So in order to get out of this mess they should 1. Restructure the debt to get a longer payment schedule 2. Improve their ability to collect taxes so that they can make some of those payments. 3. Work to privatize certain state owned businesses / infrastructure.

... or drop out of the EU, devalue currency, grow GDP

[sx]

You are arguing as if the Greek government is entitled at peoples' money no questions asked.

What you are suggesting is to keep wasting the tax money to pay for the inflated public sector and all the money wasting state companies.

They should first fix the problem, stop the wasting, and then try to collect more taxes.

Reducing tax evasion, without solving the root cause, will help nobody, it will just get more money wasted.

As far as your last point goes, I am not totally against dept restructuring. As long as they make sure they solve the root case of the problem

[jakarta]

And you are arguing as if the Greek government is entitled to no taxes.

Greece provides its citizens with loads of social services. Someone/something has to pay for that. In the other EU countries, you know - the ones without sovereign debt crises (Germany for example), the taxes paid by citizens help pay for some of those services.

In Greece that doesn't happen because of the rampant tax evasion. So instead the government lies about its budget deficit, borrows tons of debt, and is now hoping for a bailout from some of the more fiscally responsible EU nations. German tax paying citizens are likely going to have to help subsidize Greek citizens who are unwilling to pay taxes.

[sx]

Greece does not provide its citizens with more social services than other European countries, I would say that they actually provide less. And although you are right about the deficit, again, the main problem is the inflated public sector with all its associated problems, like high pensions at a young age.

The private sector should not be burdened with this, and actually, it cannot afford to pay for this burden. If collecting more taxes is the solution here, it's certain that Greece will go bankrupt.

Regarding Germany vs the other European countries, what is easy to see is the direct contribution of Germany to the EU but the indirect benefits that Germany got because of the fixed currency are more difficult to see although very very important for them.

[davidw]

It's not about more taxes, necessarily, it's that everyone should pay their "fair share", not some people pay 50%, and some wealthier people pay 0. If they think that is too high, they need to convince the politicians/electorate to lower the taxes. I can't just go steal stuff from the supermarket because I don't like the price.

[rick888]

"It's not about more taxes, necessarily, it's that everyone should pay their "fair share", not some people pay 50%"

I wish this was the case in the US.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-a...

Nearly 50% of US households didn't pay federal taxes last year. It seems people only complain when the "rich" don't pay their taxes.

I also seriously doubt that the only people not paying taxes in Greece are wealthy.

[davidw]

But people in the US (mostly) pay the taxes that they are supposed to pay, not the taxes they feel like paying. If they don't like that, there is a democratic process they can go through to get them lowered (or raised, or whatever).

> I also seriously doubt that the only people not paying taxes in Greece are wealthy.

If you read the article and the comments, the people who actually pay their taxes are those who work for companies and have them withheld, so pretty much "middle class".

> It seems people only complain when the "rich" don't pay their taxes.

I wonder why ... I'd be pretty bitter if I had to pay, and saw some guy living a life of luxury who isn't paying a dime.

There's a difference between being against taxes, and fighting to eliminate them, and simply cheating because you don't like them.

[artsrc]

If they are going to be good citizens, then Greeks must not only pay their taxes, they must also take responsibility for fixing their government, reducing waste, and stamping out their culture of corruption.

[sx]

I don't think I disagree with you. My whole argument in these posts is that tax evasion, although very real, did not lead Greece to this mess neither will its reverse take it out. The problem is the bloated public sector with all its related problems. I think fixing that should be the first step towards a real solution.

[davidw]

That's obviously a large part of the problem - to claim otherwise would be silly. But the overarching theme of the article is how everyone is out to "get theirs" and screw the next guy. This includes both the unions who got wages and benefits far out of proportion to the value of their work, as well as many people cheating on their taxes. It's a vicious circle, because when you see the next guy cheating and coming out ahead because of it, you are more inclined to cheat yourself, or grab what you can, the consequences for society be damned.

I think this has a perverse effect on markets in general: when you're pretty sure the next guy is out to screw you, rather than just make a fair trade, it erodes faith in markets and capitalism.