[sageabilly]

One of the things this article doesn't touch on is the very deep roots of hog farming in rural NC and the general prevailing attitude of "This is how we've always done it and I don't want no gubment telling me what I can and can't do with my land!" There is a sense of pride in being a hog farmer like your daddy and your granpappy and your uncle and you hope to pass down those roots to your sons some day. As to why there's a blind eye to the literal rivers of hog shit flowing into the creeks/rivers every time it floods, that I have no idea- I don't understand why people who live in that part of the state will cut their nose off to spite their face by accepting huge hog waste lagoons as a fact of life with hog farming. Being from NC I absolutely see Southern Stubbornness at work here.

Driving down the interstates in the eastern part of NC you see multiple billboards both pro- and anti-hog farming, with arguments ranging from "Hog farming keeps my children fed!" to "Hog farming is destroying our environment!" It reminds me of the pro- and anti-coal arguments currently underway in West Virginia.

[lsaferite]

I'll not argue the point you are making as I don't disagree.

I would just like to say I find it highly annoying when people denigrate people from the south by using 'words' like 'gubment' and 'granpappy' as some sort of assumed indicator of intelligence level of the subject being discussed. You being from NC and using this same backhanded insult troubles me even more TBH. Do people from the south use those words, or ones that sound like that, in conversation? Sure, sometimes. But your usage of them isn't in an effort to be accurate but more to signal some perceived superiority of intellect. You allow a difference in speech to sway opinion on your subjects possibility of knowing what they talking about.

I was born in the south, raised in the south, and currently live in the south. Whilst I find the southern twang of the people around me amusing (I don't have much of the southern speech patterns for some reason), I would never let their words and pronunciations cloud the fact that there are super smart people amongst the crowd, just like any other part of the country.

And just in case I wasn't clear, using words like 'gubment' and 'granpappy' naturally in your own writing isn't my issue, it's using them as a signal about your subject that bothers me greatly.

[sudosteph]

I'm from NC too. I didn't really interpret those words in that context as implying low intelligence. Some people in NC do really talk that way. The stereotype that people who talk like that aren't educated or intelligent is a big problem, but I didn't interpret OPs comment as reinforcing that problem. It was a pretty accurate description of something people in NC hear often from a certain type of southerner. I interpreted it more as a "slice of life" or Mark Twain-esque description of informal speech to bring readers in. Readers can certainly bring their own prejudices in, but thats on them. I certainly don't doubt that we have very intelligent people in all parts. Heck, the one person I know from a hog producing family is very intelligent. Though you wont find a stronger voice against hog farming and the pollution and health problems it causes than her.

I'm just worried that by saying it's not ok to use aspects of southern dialect when describing southerners, that we reinforce the idea that there is something "wrong " with that dialect and are erasing a part of the local culture so it doesn't offend mainstream taste.

[lsaferite]

I would never say it's not ok to document regional speech patterns. My point was that the GP comment went past documenting and into mocking (IMO). That's what I take issue with personally.

[jjeaff]

I took it as mocking. And I'd wager a hefty sum that I am right.

[sageabilly]

OP here- not mocking, going for the Mark Twain "slice of life" approach.

[wallawe]

100% agree. It's become so commonplace to stereotype southerners in a particular way in the media and by Hollywood. I live in NYC now and have to deal with constant judgement whenever I mention I'm from Alabama. The most ironic thing is that it's typically from the "tolerant" left.

[seanmcdirmid]

When I lived in Vicksburg Mississippi, I got a lot of flack for my weird yankee (actually neutral midwestern) accent as well as typical northern stereotypes (and I’m a westerner, not even a real yankee). I guess you could say that should be expected from the less tolerant right, but it definitely goes both ways.

[wallawe]

I went to school at All-Saints there in Vicksburg, small world! Yes, there is definitely a stereotype in the south towards yankees (which is pretty much anyone not from the south as you alluded). I just expected more from highly educated folks with a wider world view in NYC.

[seanmcdirmid]

I had friends that went there, but I was in public school (WCHS).

I think you’ll find people are insular everywhere. The only thing that might be different in NYC is that more people didn’t grow up there and are transplants.

[lsaferite]

Growing up in the south and not having a southern accent was REAL fun in school. Kids are evil.

[nasredin]

The NYC people that judge you are obviously not "tolerant".

Also most stereotypes have some truth to them, otherwise they wouldn't be stereotypes.

E.g. IIRC Southern states come last in education ranking.

[jjeaff]

Actually, poor areas all over the US come up last in education rankings. Your poorest areas in Los Angeles or NYC will rival or underperform the poorest areas in the south.

And your wealthy southern suburbs will outperform or rival any posh LA or NYC school district.

[praha14]

Southern states are the most predominately black states in the country. Are you sure you want to bring this up?

[galdosdi]

I've seen subcultures in NYC that are like that, but the majority subcultures are not IMHO.

Try hanging out with more diverse typical immigrant and native lower middle class to middle class new yorkers, not just other several-generation upper middle class suburban new englanders and transplants from the midwest and rest of the country which are a minority in NYC... You'll be pleasantly surprised.

Basically, hang out with non software tech people :)

[DataWorker]

Thanks for making this point. People who would never even consider mocking the speech patterns of immigrants will fall all over themselves to denigrate southerners, thier speech and deplorable, to some, religious beliefs.

[nasredin]

They are probably mocking their hypocritical, not "deplorable" religious beliefs.

That word IME is not used by anybody but the people complaining about it.

E.g. Judge Roy Moore in Alabama.

[spacehome]

That really is the way it sounds (at least to my ears). Accent is unrelated to intelligence. The only person here making that connection is you.

[lsaferite]

How about this:

> One of the things this article doesn't touch on is the very deep roots of hog farming in rural NC and the general prevailing attitude of "This is how we've always done it and I don't want no gubment telling me what I can and can't do with my land!"

vs.

One of the things this article doesn't touch on is the very deep roots of hog farming in rural NC and the general prevailing attitude that this is how they've always done it and that they don't want the government telling them what they can and can't do with their land.

By fabricating a direct quote purporting to be from a local hog farmer you are pointing out the dialect difference to put them into a group of people that are stereotyped as lower intelligence. You are meant to read that in your internal 'dumb southerner' accent and chuckle at how backwards they are in your opinion.

For you to say "Accent is unrelated to intelligence" is great and I commend you on that outlook. Unfortunately, a large portion of the crowd online doesn't share your enlightened view. For them, only ignorant people speak like that. By using that 'quote' to highlight the speech pattern, they are attempting to disparage the quotee and their peer group.

[jjeaff]

And at the same time, it tries to invalidate the point of view being expressed. They don't want the government over regulating their business. Something that many, even in this forum agree with. But only in their own area of expertise.

Regulation for thee but not for me.

[posterboy]

There's a lot to say about how ya'll're jumpin' to conclusions on intelgence 'sif ya'll was a buncha nucular scientist. But that's not my intention. I just wanna note:

A nasal accent caused by elevated exposition to manure would be literally dumb -- some phonemes are silent. That's funny in a cynical way and even if that's nothing to laughe at, it's noteworthy.

There's also the thing about the mere mention of bad things invariably eliciting negative emotions, which is why we have curse words, and perhaps why farmers don't wanna take shit from noone. And there's the disphemism-treadmil, which is why, IMHO, the substitution of curse words for clinical terms is a vain effort.

This whole subthread is purely about NC and language, so it's rather off-topic.

[lsaferite]

No, I'm pointing out an association seen all across the internet unfortunately. This one was just the final straw for me. Any time someone wants to back-handedly disparage someone's intellect, they love to use words like 'gubment' or some variation. FWIW, I also take issue with the usage of 'Murica' as well as a blanket indicator. You are calling into question a person's intellect when using terminology like that and claiming otherwise is being dishonest to either yourself or everyone else. That being said, I fully understand that some people do actually speak like that due to regional dialects and documenting that in text is fine if that is your actual intent.

[kurthr]

The words you're looking for are, "smells like money".

The wealthy/corps who distribute/buy don't care because they don't live there... working farmers know nothing else that will keep their family on the middleclass treadmill (education is right out) without the externalities of stench and pollution, while the working poor (closest to the animals and carcasses) couldn't find another job without uprooting their extended family.

It's a simple living that most communities couldn't stomach. One day there will be a virus or bacteria that will wipe it out, but until then you won't take away their lifestyle. It's all they know.

[IAmEveryone]

I wonder if their grandparents also used copious amounts of antibiotics on their animals...

[jjeaff]

Antibiotic use in livestock became prevelant in the late 50s, so yes. In fact, they probably used more back then because it was yet to be discovered that it was causing resistance issues.