[besasam]

>if you have only a bachelor, people assume something went wrong. The target at university always was a Master's degree.

What? This is definitely not true in Germany, at least not anymore. Unless you want to go into research or teaching, it's commonplace for graduates to start working right away.

I think a much bigger problem that contributes to the devaluation of university degrees is the fact that students that don't really need a degree still get pushed to attend university - and that's definitely because of current recruiting practices where you really have no chance without at least a Bachelor's. I've met so many people in university who only really wanted to code and got no use out of learning things like automata theory, complexity, higher mathematics. Not saying it isn't important to learn these things, but you gotta differentiate between coders and computer scientists. And if coder positions require a computer science degree, well... Of course you're going to end up devaluing those degrees.

Edit: Adding to this, I attended university for 4 years before switching to a more practice-oriented college. In those 4 years I had one programming lecture (which only introduced three different language paradigms and didn't go into depth) and a system programming lab (admittedly, this was really cool). Everything else was mostly theoretical computer science and mathematics. Now, I chose this university because people told me of its good reputation and I felt like I had to attend a prestigeous school to get a good job, but it didn't really teach me any practical skills at all, so even if I had graduated I would've had a hard time landing that "good job" due to complete lack of experience.

[pjmlp]

Don't forget that a Diplom in Germany is similar to Bachelor + MS in other countries.

I always have to explain that a Licentiate[0] is more akin to MS than Bachelor, which is a bummer on employment forms that don't expose it as option.

After Bologna, Portuguese universities started giving the option for former Licentiates to request their MS title, given the split into 3 + 2.

Which according to my knowledge also happens in other European countries where CS degrees used to be 5 years duration, before Bologna happened.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licentiate_(degree)

[jcbrand]

> Don't forget that a Diplom in Germany is similar to Bachelor + MS in other countries.

No, actually it's not. Germans are under this impression because it's considered equivalent inside Germany.

[rocqua]

Here in the Netherlands, we switched to 3 + 2 years of BSc + MSc from a 5 year degree a while back.

The actual program didn't change, just the diplomas you get in the end. Based on this, I'm comfortable saying that an MSc given these days is essentially the old 5 year degree.

[majewsky]

> The actual program didn't change

I was studying physics in Germany right when the transition from 5-year diploma to 3+2 BSc+MSc happened. While most parts of the curriculum stayed the same, faculty took the opportunity to modernize the curriculum. For example, Computational Physics (an introductory programming course with a focus on numerical calculation methods and how to deal with precision-induced numerical errors) was upgraded from optional to mandatory, given that nearly all physicists have to write some code these days.

[madengr]

How can you cover a BS in 3 years? Most engineering graduates take 5 years for a BS. I only did it in 4 by 18-21 credits/semester and 1 summer.

[barry-cotter]

Outside the US and countries that ape its university system there are no general education requirements. You study your degree subject and nothing else. The well rounded citizen stuff is presumed covered in secondary school.

[kilburn]

The 5-year degrees that existed in most of Europe before bologna were not centered around being a "well-rounded citizen". They were centered around being a "well-rounded" major.

In CS, this means that you were taught courses ranging from basic Electrical Engineering all the way to Artificial Intelligence, including physics, algebra, calculus, signal processing, theory of computation, algorithms, databases, computer architecture, compilers, computer networks, robotics, etc.. That is, you got introductory-level courses on everything that makes "computer-stuff", and then there were a number of optional courses where you specialized.

I really don't think you can cover all that material in 3 years...

[pjmlp]

That is what I have been told from German friends, hence my assertion.

Looking at the contents of 3 years bachelor + 2 years MS, versus the contents of old Licentiate 5 years duration in Portugal, they are clearly equivalent in content.

Hence why after Bologna many universities basically renamed their Licentiate degree into something called Integrated MS, which means the students get a BS + MS paper at the end of those 5 years.

Also the reason why former Licentiates are allowed to basically acquire their MS title, by paying bureaucratic fees and in some cases presenting some kind of career report as thesis.

[Kurtz79]

Yup, I graduated in Bologna with a 3+2 engineering degree, it was pretty much a straight conversion from the previous 5 years curriculum, with the latest 2 optional. The classes themselves were made more accessible (broken down in shorter modules), but the 3 years curriculum is, to all effects and purposes, a degree.

In hindsight, I don't think having a Master rather than a Bachelor influenced my job opportunities: but having a degree at all definitely did, at least for finding a job in established companies.

[k__]

That's what most diploma holders think, but it isn't.

Most bachelor degrees are 7 semesters, diplomas were 8 semesters.

Ofthen they just cut out a practical semester and that's it.

[wolfgke]

> Most bachelor degrees are 7 semesters, diplomas were 8 semesters.

In mathematics Diplom (Diplom-Mathematiker) was 9 semester; now BSc + MSc is 6 + 3 semesters.

In computer science Diplom (Diplom-Informatiker) was 10 semester: now BSc + MSc is 7 + 3 semesters.

Both for my university in Germany.

[k__]

Really? I only saw >8 semester degrees in medicine.

[wolfgke]

As far as I know 9 semesters were usual for Diplom in nearly all subjects (note that some degree courses such as medicine, dentistry, pharmacy, law that are more thightly controlled by the government to my knowledge still finish with a Staatsexamen (state examination) degree). The 10 semesters for Diplom in computer science (1 more than usual; 9 are usual) are to my knowledge somewhat unusual in Germany and the reason is that at my university that it was intended (as a pilot project) that you write your bachelor thesis while you do a 6 month internship at a company that does the "daily tasks" of the supervision of the bachelor thesis. For this one additional semester was introduced.

[orbifold]

If what you are saying is true (bachelors being valued the same) then this is kind of sad. I still believe that the old diploma degrees were one of the competitive advantages that our industry had. And from personal observation I can tell you that all the physics students I knew continued with a masters degree if they could.

[besasam]

Hadn't really considered the natural sciences there, you're right! I was talking mainly from a tech/engineering perspective and at least in my generation (filthy millenials) and among my peers in uni I've observed the opposite.